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<font size="-1"><font face="Comic Sans MS">From what I remember of a
history of English language class long ago, "ye/you" were originally
(well, earlier than the 1600s) the 2-plural forms, parallel to
"thou/thee" (subject/object forms). Gradually the plural forms spread
over to include the 2-singular-formal meaning by the time the Quakers
initiated (or contributed to) another shift by rejecting the formal
form. Somewhere in there the subject/object distinction was also lost;
I've seen Quaker speech quoted using "thee" for both forms.<br>
<br>
This may be merely conjecture, but I've always figured the
"you-2s-formal" shift spread from the "royal we" usage; that is, kings
used "we" when addressing their subjects, and expected the subjects to
reciprocate with the plural form. Gradually more people inserted
themselves into the semi-royal category, etc.<br>
<br>
I don't know about chronology here, but could the "need" for a formal
2s pronoun have been influenced by the French upper-class influence in
English society during parts of English history?<br>
<br>
It's also ironic that current American English speakers consider
"thou/thee" to be an archaic formal form until they learn this history,
since it is only used to address God in certain contexts!<br>
<br>
Kim<br>
</font></font><br>
bolstar1 wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:f4abkq+dqfq@eGroups.com" type="cite"><!-- Network content -->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>Benjamin: The Quakers began their denomination in the 1650's,
under the <br>
leadership of George Fox. This would put the movement 30+ years after <br>
Shakespeare died (1616). I don't know what social/religious pressures <br>
were placed on the original pronouns 'ye' and 'thou' and 'thee', but <br>
"Thou" had been used as an informal form for many years before <br>
1650. "You" come from Old English 'ee-ow,' -- from West Germanic roots,
<br>
and according to the Oxford Dictionary (American) was related to the <br>
Duch 'u.' <br>
"During the 14th cent. you began to replace ye¹, <br>
thou¹, and thee; by the 17th cent. it had become <br>
the ordinary second person pronoun for any number <br>
and case." (Oxford American Dictionary)<br>
Maybe an OED'er has a better handle on the reasons, or the <br>
influences on, the words that made the forms change. <br>
<br>
Scott<br>
<br>
</p>
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