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It is very interesting that in Russian from the 18th cent. and up to October revolution 1917 was active a split of forms you (ty) as informal and Thou (vy) as formal and polite form. Russian tzars and emperors also use plural we (my) in their addresses. But what is more, the use of Sire (sudar') since the 18th century penetrated speech and writing of educated classes. So is it not unusual to find "Merciful Sire" (milostivyi gosudar') as form of formal address of one person to another (instead let say Dear Ivan). The split of ty/vy gradually dies, but still in use. I suspect that the aforementioned split was created by influence first of German and then was supported by French along the move of the educated society from German fashion to French one. In the writing the plural<br>form vy (you) was not capitalized, but to indicate a polite or formal use Vy (Thou, Vous, Sie) it was capitalized.<br><br>Hayim Y. Sheynin<br><br><b><i>Kim Blewett <kim_blewett@sil.org></i></b>
wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <!-- Network content --> <div id="ygrp-text"> <div> <font size="-1"><font face="Comic Sans MS">From what I remember of a history of English language class long ago, "ye/you" were originally (well, earlier than the 1600s) the 2-plural forms, parallel to "thou/thee" (subject/object forms). Gradually the plural forms spread over to include the 2-singular-formal meaning by the time the Quakers initiated (or contributed to) another shift by rejecting the formal form. Somewhere in there the subject/object distinction was also lost; I've seen Quaker speech quoted using "thee" for both forms.<br> <br> This may
be merely conjecture, but I've always figured the "you-2s-formal" shift spread from the "royal we" usage; that is, kings used "we" when addressing their subjects, and expected the subjects to reciprocate with the plural form. Gradually more people inserted themselves into the semi-royal category, etc.<br> <br> I don't know about chronology here, but could the "need" for a formal 2s pronoun have been influenced by the French upper-class influence in English society during parts of English history?<br> <br> It's also ironic that current American English speakers consider "thou/thee" to be an archaic formal form until they learn this history, since it is only used to address God in certain contexts!<br> <br> Kim<br> </font></font><br> bolstar1 wrote: </div><blockquote cite="mid:f4abkq+dqfq@eGroups.com" type="cite"><!-- Network content --> <div id="ygrp-text"> <div>Benjamin: The Quakers began their denomination in the 1650's, under the <br> leadership of George Fox. This
would put the movement 30+ years after <br> Shakespeare died (1616). I don't know what social/religious pressures <br> were placed on the original pronouns 'ye' and 'thou' and 'thee', but <br> "Thou" had been used as an informal form for many years before <br> 1650. "You" come from Old English 'ee-ow,' -- from West Germanic roots, <br> and according to the Oxford Dictionary (American) was related to the <br> Duch 'u.' <br> "During the 14th cent. you began to replace yeš, <br> thouš, and thee; by the 17th cent. it had become <br> the ordinary second person pronoun for any number <br> and case." (Oxford American Dictionary)<br> Maybe an OED'er has a better handle on the reasons, or the <br> influences on, the words that made the forms change. <br> <br> Scott<br> <br> </div> </div> <!--End group email --></blockquote> <div></div> </div> <!--End group email --> </blockquote><br><p>
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