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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
14.0pt'>You are right, David,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>The lex-list in not exactly the place to
discuss this question which people with your and my background love to discuss.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Bill Poser was not wrong with his
generalized statement. Let me give an example: German philosopher Immanuel Kant’s
works are extremely difficult to understand in German. Now I heard that
translations of Kant into English are clearer and easier to understand. Why is
that? I’d say it takes a philosopher to translate a philosopher (in the
same way as it takes a poet to translate a poet). Certainly the translator(s)
of Kant into English made an effort to understand Kant (you can’t translate
what you have not understood) and translated his works into comprehensible
English. I would not go so far to say that these translations are better than
the original but they communicate better.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>We as Bible translators do the same when
we try to furnish meaning-based translations of the complicated Greek syntax of
say, Paul’s letter to the “Romans” or to the “Ephesians.”
The same applies to the translation of Hebrew poetry.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>For what it is worth,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Fritz<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=ygrp-mlmsg>
<div style='float:left;z-index:1' id=ygrp-msg>
<div id=ygrp-text>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS"'>This is a very interesting philosophical
question, whether a translation can be better than an original. The reason it
is so interesting is that in answering the question, some premises might have
to be stated that might have been left unstated otherwise.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS"'>It seems to me that if it is absolutely
impossible for a translation to be better than the original, you are saying
that the primary virtue of a translation is its faithfulness to the original.
That is, to the extent that it is not faithful to the original, to that same
extent it is not legitimate somehow. Would you say that that is the case for
every kind of translation? Can you really say that, for example, Shakespeare'<wbr>s Romeo
and Juliet in German cannot be better (in any way?) than Shakespeare'<wbr>s
original in English? Is it really disqualified from being better, or it rather
a question for research to see if it is better?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS"'>We don't want to try to answer these
questions on the Lexicography List, but there may be a different place where
such issues can be discussed. I appreciate Bill Poser for bringing up a
though-provoking idea.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS"'>-- David Frank</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:Fritz_Goerling@sil.org" title="Fritz_Goerling@sil.org">Fritz
Goerling</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com"
title="lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Saturday, June 30,
2007 7:33 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> RE: [Lexicog] When
Semantics Doesn't Matter<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=4 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:14.0pt;
color:black'>Hayim,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<o></o>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o> </o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Let me comment on a few of your points. <o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o> </o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Fritz<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o> </o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>The statement was made:<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o> </o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><<Shakespeare
is better in German translation.>><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<o></o>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o> </o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Hayim responded:<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Let me share some thoughts relating to this generalization.<br>
<font color=black><span style='color:black'><</span></font><br>
5. Do <span style='cursor:pointer' id="lw_1183219840_7">Shakespeare'<wbr>s
witticisms and phraseology sound better in translation?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<o></o></span>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o> </o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Witticisms and puns can very rarely
be reproduced. It is always better to read<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> the author in the original. In a
translation one can add a footnote explaining<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> a pun in order not to lose the
effect.<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
6. Can anybody state that KJV of the Bible or German Luther's translation<br>
or any other translation of the Bible be better than Hebrew original.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<o></o>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o> </o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Of course, not. Translators of the
Bible should know the original languages.<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> A model is <st1><st1:City w:st="on">St.
Jerome</st1></st1:City>, responsible for the Vulgata, who settled down in <st1><st1><st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Jerusalem</st1></st1></st1:place></st1:City>.<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
7. Can anybody state that any translation of a classical work (I mean <br>
one written in classical Greek or ancient Latin) be better than the original?<font
color=black><span style='color:black'> <o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o> </o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> Never, but a translation can be
“kongenial” ( I don’t know how to translate<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> the German word into English
because “congenial” seems to be a false friend;<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> maybe “ideally
matched”). An example would be the late Hans Wollschläger’s<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> legendary translation of James
Joyce’s “Ulysses” into German.<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
8. There are many excellent translations from language A to language B,<br>
and how laudable they can be they never are going to be equal to the<br>
original.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<o></o>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><o> </o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> At best “kongenial.”<o></o></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'><o> </o></span></font><br>
Hayim Sheynin<o:p></o:p></p>
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