<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:o =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1 =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16608" name=GENERATOR><o:SmartTagType
name="place"
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagType><!--[if !mso]>
<STYLE>st1\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui)
}
</STYLE>
<![endif]-->
<STYLE>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
@font-face
{font-family:"\@SimSun";
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.GermanSenseGloss, li.GermanSenseGloss, div.GermanSenseGloss
{margin-top:.2pt;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:1.25pt;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
text-align:justify;
text-justify:inter-ideograph;
text-indent:8.45pt;
line-height:8.45pt;
background:white;
text-autospace:none;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.VernacularExample, li.VernacularExample, div.VernacularExample
{margin-top:.2pt;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:1.25pt;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
text-align:justify;
text-justify:inter-ideograph;
text-indent:8.45pt;
line-height:8.45pt;
background:white;
text-autospace:none;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
p.sensenumber, li.sensenumber, div.sensenumber
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:1.1pt;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:1.45pt;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
text-align:justify;
text-justify:inter-ideograph;
text-indent:8.8pt;
line-height:8.45pt;
background:white;
text-autospace:none;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
p.Germandefinition, li.Germandefinition, div.Germandefinition
{margin-top:.2pt;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:1.25pt;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
text-align:justify;
text-justify:inter-ideograph;
text-indent:8.45pt;
line-height:8.45pt;
background:white;
text-autospace:none;
font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-compose;
font-family:Arial;
color:windowtext;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY lang=EN-US vLink=purple link=blue bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I can't read Cyrillic script and I'm not too familiar with
Shoebox or Toolbox or FieldWorks, but I think I see two problems here. It looks
to me like you are citing an example of a phrase, and I would not try to give an
etymology for a phrase. Words have etymologies; phrases don't. Or in the case of
a calque, I suppose you could consider the source from another language as
being a kind of etymology, but we wouldn't usually describe phrases as having
etymologies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Also, I wouldn't assign a part of speech to a phrase either.
It looks like you are calling this phrase a noun, and I don't think that is
appropriate. A phrase may contain a noun but wouldn't be called a noun
or any other part of speech. Instead of a word class label, some people might
want to assign a label that would be appropriate to phrases such as "phr" or
"np", but I prefer to just leave the part of speech blank for anything I would
put into a dictionary that is comprised of more than
one word.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>-- David Frank</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>---- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ken_keyes@sil.org href="mailto:ken_keyes@sil.org">Kenneth Keyes</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=flex@lists.sil.org
href="mailto:flex@lists.sil.org">flex@lists.sil.org</A> ; <A
title=lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:24
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Lexicog] Lexical Relations vs.
Etymology</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dear All,
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi, I have another brainteaser for
you:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">What relation do Calques bear to
the language they are borrowed from? For example, I have the following
entries:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ
(АХАЖ) <st1:place w:st="on">N Eng</st1:place> vital statistics offfce -
where changes in the lives of citizens are recorded Kaz азаматтардың өмір
өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім Rus отдел записи актов гражданского
состояния <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">АХАЖ Contr АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ
АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cf. SFM export:
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lx АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН
ЖАЗУ<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\sn 1<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\ps_en
N<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_en vital statistics offfce -
where changes in the lives of citizens are
recorded<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_kk азаматтардың өмір
өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">d</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">_</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">ru</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
отдел записи актов гражданского состояния<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lx
АХАЖ<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\et
Contr<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\mn АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН
ЖАЗУ<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This a calque from the Russian:
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">ЗАГС N Eng The
government office where vital statistics are recorded. Kaz азаматтық
хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу Rus отдел <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">З</SPAN></B>аписи<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
А</SPAN></B>ктов<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
Г</SPAN></B>ражданского<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
С</SPAN></B>остояния<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"> </SPAN></B>calq: АХАЖ.
(sem. domains: admin. - administration.) {coll.}<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lx
ЗАГС<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\sn 1<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\ps_en
N<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_en The government office where
vital statistics are recorded.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_kk азаматтық хал-ахуалды
тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">d</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">_</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">ru</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
отдел записи актов гражданского состояния<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lf
calq<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lv
АХАЖ<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\is_en
admin.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\sd_en
administration<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\u_en
coll.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To handle this case, I created a
lexical function called “Calque”. However, this is also the etymology of the
word. How do I deal with the etymology? There are tons of these cases (of
calques from Russian) in Eurasian languages. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks for considering this!
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Best
regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ken<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><SPAN
style="COLOR: white" width="1"></SPAN> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<span width="1" style="color: white;"/>__._,_.___</span>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97476590/grpId=11682781/grpspId=1709195911/msgId=4298/stime=1204431461" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<div style="font-family: verdana; font-size: 77%; border-top: 1px solid #666; padding: 5px 0;" >
Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnb2Vpdjg0BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMjA0NDMxNDYx">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:lexicographylist-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:lexicographylist-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Fully Featured">Switch to Fully Featured</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZnZydHFhBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTIwNDQzMTQ2MQ--">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use
</a> |
<a href="mailto:lexicographylist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">
Unsubscribe
</a>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<span style="color: white;"/>__,_._,___</span>
</BODY></HTML>