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<DIV><SPAN class=152412806-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>My colleague, a retired linguistic missionary (to Sudan) who is
in the process of producing a Toolbox dictionary, had been advised
several years ago to put "idiom" in the \ps Range Set, and she has
several hundred idioms in her database. The hierarchy is \lx
(lexeme)>\se (subentry)>ps (part of speech)>\sn (sense number).
The positioning of "idiom" under \ps creates a problem when we try to
print the dictionary. Each idiom, like any new subentry, starts on a new
line. The items under \sn do not start on new lines, which looks better and
saves space. For the purpose of printing, then, it might be better if
"idiom" (like other items such as \de [definitions] or \sy [synonyms]) were
under \sn. However, I'm not sure how we can do this using the standard MDF
categories. Any advice?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN class=152412806-02032008>Cheryl</SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Crockett<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 01, 2008 10:16 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Lexicog] Lexical
Relations vs. Etymology<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">Ken,<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">Where do you label something as an
idiom? I think some people label idioms in the part of speech field. I would
think you could use the part of speech field to call it a
calque.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">Crockett<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com
[mailto:lexicograph<WBR>ylist@yahoogroup<WBR>s.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>David Frank<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, March 02, 2008 5:18
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Lexicog] Re: Lexical Relations
vs. Etymology<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=ygrp-mlmsg>
<DIV id=ygrp-msg>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I can't read Cyrillic script and I'm not too familiar
with Shoebox or Toolbox or FieldWorks, but I think I see two problems here. It
looks to me like you are citing an example of a phrase, and I would not try to
give an etymology for a phrase. Words have etymologies; phrases don't. Or in the
case of a calque, I suppose you could consider the source from another
language as being a kind of etymology, but we wouldn't usually describe
phrases as having etymologies.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Also, I wouldn't assign a part of speech to a phrase
either. It looks like you are calling this phrase a noun, and I don't think that
is appropriate. A phrase may contain a noun but wouldn't be called a
noun or any other part of speech. Instead of a word class label, some people
might want to assign a label that would be appropriate to phrases such as "phr"
or "np", but I prefer to just leave the part of speech blank for anything I
would put into a dictionary that is comprised of more than
one word.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-- David Frank</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">---- Original Message -----
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=ken_keyes@sil.org
href="mailto:ken_keyes@sil.org">Kenneth Keyes</A>
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=flex@lists.sil.org
href="mailto:flex@lists.sil.org">flex@lists.sil.<WBR>org</A> ; <A
title=lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:24
AM<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> [Lexicog] Lexical Relations
vs. Etymology<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dear
All, </SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi, I
have another brainteaser for you:</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">What
relation do Calques bear to the language they are borrowed from? For example,
I have the following entries:</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ (АХАЖ) N Eng
vital statistics offfce - where changes in the lives of citizens are recorded
Kaz азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім Rus отдел
записи актов гражданского состояния </SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">АХАЖ Contr АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН
ЖАЗУ</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cf.
SFM export: </SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\lx
АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\sn
1</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\ps_en N</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\d_en
vital statistics offfce - where changes in the lives of citizens are
recorded</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\d_kk
азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын
бөлім</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">d</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ru</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> отдел записи актов гражданского
состояния</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\lx
АХАЖ</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\et
Contr</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\mn
АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This
a calque from the Russian: </SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ЗАГС N Eng The government office where
vital statistics are recorded. Kaz азаматтық хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім
актілерін жазу Rus отдел <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">З</SPAN></B>аписи<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
А</SPAN></B>ктов<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
Г</SPAN></B>ражданского<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
С</SPAN></B>остояния<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"> </SPAN></B>calq: АХАЖ.
(sem. domains: admin. - administration.<WBR>) {coll.}</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\lx
ЗАГС</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\sn
1</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\ps_en N</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\d_en
The government office where vital statistics are
recorded.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\d_kk
азаматтық хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">d</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ru</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> отдел записи актов гражданского
состояния</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red">\lf calq</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\lv
АХАЖ</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\is_en admin.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\sd_en administration</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\u_en
coll.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To
handle this case, I created a lexical function called “Calque”. However, this
is also the etymology of the word. How do I deal with the etymology? There are
tons of these cases (of calques from Russian) in Eurasian languages.
</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thanks for considering this! </SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Best
regards,</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ken</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=white size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: white"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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