<html><head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 14px 0px;
padding: 0px 14px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd{
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: bold;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0px;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads{
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad{
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a{
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body>
<div>Dear Ken,</div> <div> </div> <div>Excuse me that I interfere relating to your message. This should read</div> <div>"zapis' aktov grazhdaskogo sostojanija" unless you are recording a regional</div> <div>pronunciation. It is known to Russian speakers as ZAGS, and this abbreviation </div> <div>should be treated as a noun, because of its usage: Ja poshjol v ZAGS, po</div> <div>zapisjam iz ZAGSa, ja byl v ZAGSe, zaregistrirovano ZAGSom. The same </div> <div>relates to other frequently used Russian abbreviations (e.g.: ZhAKT, MVD, MID). </div> <div> </div> <div>Secondly, I am in doubt that it can be understood as "vital statisics office." </div> <div>It is just office for legal registration of acts of births, marriages, producing passports</div> <div>(a kind of identity card) and registration of deaths, that before 1917 was done in </div> <div>the local offices of police (politsejskaja chast'). Now it is just the state recording </div>
<div>office joint to militsija under auspices of Interior Department (Ministerstvo </div> <div>Vnutrennikh Del), and frequently inside of the same militsija office. This </div> <div>office replaced former registration by churches, synagogues, etc. Its records</div> <div>may or may not used for statistics.(demography).</div> <div><B><I></I></B> </div> <div><STRONG><EM>Best wishes,</EM></STRONG></div> <div><STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG> </div> <div><STRONG><EM>Hayim Y. Sheynin</EM></STRONG></div> <div><B><I></I></B> </div> <div><B><I></I></B> </div> <div><B><I></I></B> </div> <div><B><I>Kenneth Keyes <ken_keyes@sil.org></I></B> wrote:</div> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <div> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>David, </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks for responding. What I was trying to demonstrate here was that this kk phrase is a compound noun is calque derived from the Russian </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>"zapis aktov grazhdanskovo sostajanijie" = record of documentation of the situation of citizens, i.e. vital statistics office. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr
align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I believe while this is a phrase, </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>"vital statistics office" functions as a noun. The phrase "vital statistics" also functions as a noun. What I am trying to establish is, what relationship do calques have to their original "loanwords"? For example, a common kk calque for typesetting is <EM>maetin tery </EM>"to pick texts" which is a calque from the Russian nabor tekstov, lit. "collection of texts". This sounds strange in kk to me, it sounds like you're picking fruit off a tree. There are many, many such calques in kk, as the language struggles to transform itself from vocabulary suitable for nomadic herdsmen to one which can accomodate a modern technological society. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Ken</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left> <HR tabIndex=-1> <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com [mailto:lexicograph<WBR>ylist@yahoogroup<WBR>s.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>David Frank<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 02, 2008 10:18 AM<BR><B>To:</B> lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Lexicog] Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymology<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <div> <DIV><FONT size=2>I can't read Cyrillic script and I'm not too familiar with Shoebox or Toolbox or FieldWorks, but I think I see two problems here. It looks to me like you are citing an example of a phrase, and I would not try to give an etymology for a phrase. Words have etymologies; phrases don't. Or in the case of a calque, I suppose you
could consider the source from another language as being a kind of etymology, but we wouldn't usually describe phrases as having etymologies.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Also, I wouldn't assign a part of speech to a phrase either. It looks like you are calling this phrase a noun, and I don't think that is appropriate. A phrase may contain a noun but wouldn't be called a noun or any other part of speech. Instead of a word class label, some people might want to assign a label that would be appropriate to phrases such as "phr" or "np", but I prefer to just leave the part of speech blank for anything I would put into a dictionary that is comprised of more than one word.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>-- David Frank</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>---- Original Message ----- </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=ken_keyes@sil.org href="mailto:ken_keyes@sil.org">Kenneth Keyes</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=flex@lists.sil.org href="mailto:flex@lists.sil.org">flex@lists.sil.<WBR>org</A> ; <A title=lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:24 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Lexicog] Lexical Relations vs. Etymology</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV class=Section1> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dear All, <O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">Hi, I have another brainteaser for you:<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">What relation do Calques bear to the language they are borrowed from? For example, I have the following entries:<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕ ІН ЖАЗУ (АХАЖ) <ST1>N Eng</ST1> vital statistics offfce - where changes in the lives of citizens are recorded Kaz азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім Rus отдел записи актов
гражданского состояния <O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">АХАЖ Contr АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕ ІН ЖАЗУ<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cf. SFM export: <O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lx АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕ ІН ЖАЗУ<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\sn 1<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div
class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\ps_en N<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_en vital statistics offfce - where changes in the lives of citizens are recorded<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_kk азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">d</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">_</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">ru</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN lang=RU style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> отдел записи актов гражданского состояния<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lx АХАЖ<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\et Contr<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\mn АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕ ІН ЖАЗУ<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This a
calque from the Russian: <O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">ЗАГС N Eng The government office where vital statistics are recorded. Kaz азаматтық хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу Rus отдел <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">З</SPAN></B>аписи<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"> А</SPAN></B>ктов<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"> Г</SPAN></B>ражданского<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"> С</SPAN></B>остояния<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"> </SPAN></B>calq: АХАЖ. (sem. domains: admin. - administration.<WBR>) {coll.}<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lx ЗАГС<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\sn 1<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\ps_en N<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_en The government office where vital statistics are recorded.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_kk азаматтық хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">d</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">_</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">ru</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> отдел записи актов гражданского состояния<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=red size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lf calq<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lv АХАЖ<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\is_en admin.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\sd_en
administration<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\u_en coll.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To handle this case, I created a lexical function called “Calque”. However, this is also the etymology of the word. How do I deal with the etymology? There are tons of these cases (of calques from Russian) in Eurasian languages. <O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks for considering this! <O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Best regards,<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></div> <div class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ken<O></O></SPAN></FONT></div></DIV><SPAN style="COLOR: white" width="1"></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <div></div></DIV><!--End group email --><BR> <div><FONT size=2>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.2/1305 - Release Date: 2/29/2008 6:32 PM<BR></FONT></div><BR> <div><FONT size=2>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.2/1305 - Release Date: 2/29/2008 6:32 PM<BR></FONT></div>
<div></div></DIV><!--End group email --></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Dr. Hayim Y. Sheynin<p>
<hr size=1>Never miss a thing. <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs"> Make Yahoo your homepage.</a>
<span width="1" style="color: white;"/>__._,_.___</span>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97476590/grpId=11682781/grpspId=1709195911/msgId=4301/stime=1204485188" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<div style="font-family: verdana; font-size: 77%; border-top: 1px solid #666; padding: 5px 0;" >
Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnc2FyMTdzBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMjA0NDg1MTg4">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:lexicographylist-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:lexicographylist-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Fully Featured">Switch to Fully Featured</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMnBnM2liBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTIwNDQ4NTE4OA--">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use
</a> |
<a href="mailto:lexicographylist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">
Unsubscribe
</a>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<span style="color: white;"/>__,_._,___</span>
</body></html>