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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color="#002060" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#002060'>Ken,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color="#002060" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color="#002060" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#002060'>Where do you label something as an
idiom? I think some people label idioms in the part of speech field. I would
think you could use the part of speech field to call it a calque.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color="#002060" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color="#002060" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#002060'>Crockett<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color="#002060" face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#002060'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>David Frank<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, March 02, 2008 5:18
AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Lexicog] Re: Lexical
Relations vs. Etymology<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=ygrp-mlmsg>
<div id=ygrp-msg>
<div id=ygrp-text>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>I can't read Cyrillic script and I'm not too familiar with Shoebox or
Toolbox or FieldWorks, but I think I see two problems here. It looks to me like
you are citing an example of a phrase, and I would not try to give an etymology
for a phrase. Words have etymologies; phrases don't. Or in the case of a
calque, I suppose you could consider the source from another language as
being a kind of etymology, but we wouldn't usually describe phrases as having
etymologies.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Also, I wouldn't assign a part of speech to a phrase either. It looks
like you are calling this phrase a noun, and I don't think that is appropriate.
A phrase may contain a noun but wouldn't be called a noun or any
other part of speech. Instead of a word class label, some people might want to
assign a label that would be appropriate to phrases such as "phr" or
"np", but I prefer to just leave the part of speech blank for
anything I would put into a dictionary that is comprised of more than one word.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>-- David Frank</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>---- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>
<a href="mailto:ken_keyes@sil.org" title="ken_keyes@sil.org">Kenneth Keyes</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>
<a href="mailto:flex@lists.sil.org" title="flex@lists.sil.org">flex@lists.sil.org</a>
; <a href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com"
title="lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>
Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:24 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>
[Lexicog] Lexical Relations vs. Etymology<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dear
All, </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hi,
I have another brainteaser for you:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>What
relation do Calques bear to the language they are borrowed from? For example, I
have the following entries:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>АЗАМАТТЫҚ
ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ (АХАЖ) N Eng vital statistics offfce - where
changes in the lives of citizens are recorded Kaz азаматтардың өмір
өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім Rus отдел записи актов гражданского
состояния </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>АХАЖ
Contr АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Cf.
SFM export: </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\lx
АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\sn
1</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\ps_en
N</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\d_en
vital statistics offfce - where changes in the lives of citizens are recorded</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\d_kk
азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=RU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=RU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>_</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>ru</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=RU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>
отдел записи актов гражданского состояния</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=RU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\lx
АХАЖ</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\et
Contr</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\mn
АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>This
a calque from the Russian: </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>ЗАГС
N Eng The government office where vital statistics are recorded. Kaz
азаматтық хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу Rus отдел <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>З</span></b>аписи<b><span style='font-weight:bold'> А</span></b>ктов<b><span
style='font-weight:bold'> Г</span></b>ражданского<b><span style='font-weight:
bold'> С</span></b>остояния<b><span style='font-weight:bold'> </span></b>calq:
АХАЖ. (sem. domains: admin. - administration.) {coll.}</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\lx
ЗАГС</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\sn
1</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\ps_en
N</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\d_en
The government office where vital statistics are recorded.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\d_kk
азаматтық хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=RU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>d</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=RU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>_</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>ru</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=RU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>
отдел записи актов гражданского состояния</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:red'>\lf calq</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\lv
АХАЖ</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\is_en
admin.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\sd_en
administration</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>\u_en
coll.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To
handle this case, I created a lexical function called “Calque”. However, this
is also the etymology of the word. How do I deal with the etymology? There are
tons of these cases (of calques from Russian) in Eurasian languages. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thanks
for considering this! </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Best
regards,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Ken</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=white face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:white'></span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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