<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3268" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>David, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks for responding. What I was trying to demonstrate
here was that this kk phrase is a compound noun is calque derived from the
Russian </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>"zapis aktov grazhdanskovo sostajanijie" = record of
documentation of the situation of citizens, i.e. vital statistics office.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I believe while this is a phrase, </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>"vital statistics
office" functions as a noun. The phrase "vital statistics" also functions as a
noun. What I am trying to establish is, what relationship do calques have
to their original "loanwords"? For example, a common kk calque for typesetting
is <EM>maetin tery </EM>"to pick texts" which is a calque from the Russian nabor
tekstov, lit. "collection of texts". This sounds strange in kk to me, it
sounds like you're picking fruit off a tree. There are many, many such calques
in kk, as the language struggles to transform itself from vocabulary
suitable for nomadic herdsmen to one which can accomodate a modern technological
society. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Ken</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>David
Frank<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 02, 2008 10:18 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Lexicog] Re: Lexical
Relations vs. Etymology<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I can't read Cyrillic script and I'm not too familiar with
Shoebox or Toolbox or FieldWorks, but I think I see two problems here. It looks
to me like you are citing an example of a phrase, and I would not try to give an
etymology for a phrase. Words have etymologies; phrases don't. Or in the case of
a calque, I suppose you could consider the source from another language as
being a kind of etymology, but we wouldn't usually describe phrases as having
etymologies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Also, I wouldn't assign a part of speech to a phrase either.
It looks like you are calling this phrase a noun, and I don't think that is
appropriate. A phrase may contain a noun but wouldn't be called a noun
or any other part of speech. Instead of a word class label, some people might
want to assign a label that would be appropriate to phrases such as "phr" or
"np", but I prefer to just leave the part of speech blank for anything I would
put into a dictionary that is comprised of more than
one word.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>-- David Frank</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>---- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=ken_keyes@sil.org href="mailto:ken_keyes@sil.org">Kenneth Keyes</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=flex@lists.sil.org
href="mailto:flex@lists.sil.org">flex@lists.sil.<WBR>org</A> ; <A
title=lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:24
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Lexicog] Lexical Relations vs.
Etymology</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dear All,
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi, I have another brainteaser for
you:<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">What relation do Calques bear to
the language they are borrowed from? For example, I have the following
entries:<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ
(АХАЖ) <ST1>N Eng</ST1> vital statistics offfce - where changes in the
lives of citizens are recorded Kaz азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып
отыратын бөлім Rus отдел записи актов гражданского состояния
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">АХАЖ Contr АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ
АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cf. SFM export:
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lx АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН
ЖАЗУ<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\sn 1<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\ps_en N<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_en vital statistics offfce -
where changes in the lives of citizens are recorded<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_kk азаматтардың өмір
өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">d</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">_</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">ru</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
отдел записи актов гражданского состояния<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lx АХАЖ<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\et Contr<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\mn АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН
ЖАЗУ<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This a calque from the Russian:
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">ЗАГС N Eng The
government office where vital statistics are recorded. Kaz азаматтық
хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу Rus отдел <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">З</SPAN></B>аписи<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
А</SPAN></B>ктов<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
Г</SPAN></B>ражданского<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
С</SPAN></B>остояния<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"> </SPAN></B>calq: АХАЖ.
(sem. domains: admin. - administration.<WBR>) {coll.}<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lx ЗАГС<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\sn 1<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\ps_en N<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_en The government office where
vital statistics are recorded.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\d_kk азаматтық хал-ахуалды
тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">d</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">_</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">ru</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
отдел записи актов гражданского состояния<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lf
calq<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\lv АХАЖ<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\is_en
admin.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\sd_en
administration<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">\u_en
coll.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To handle this case, I created a
lexical function called “Calque”. However, this is also the etymology of the
word. How do I deal with the etymology? There are tons of these cases (of
calques from Russian) in Eurasian languages. <O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks for considering this!
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Best
regards,<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ken<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><SPAN
style="COLOR: white" width="1"></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P></P></DIV><!--End group email --><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free
Edition.<BR>Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.2/1305 - Release Date:
2/29/2008 6:32 PM<BR></FONT></P>
<span width="1" style="color: white;"/>__._,_.___</span>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97476590/grpId=11682781/grpspId=1709195911/msgId=4300/stime=1204475314" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<div style="font-family: verdana; font-size: 77%; border-top: 1px solid #666; padding: 5px 0;" >
Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJndTA4N3Q2BF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMjA0NDc1MzE0">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:lexicographylist-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:lexicographylist-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Fully Featured">Switch to Fully Featured</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist;_ylc=X3oDMTJlazQ5MzNkBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTIwNDQ3NTMxNA--">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use
</a> |
<a href="mailto:lexicographylist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">
Unsubscribe
</a>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<span style="color: white;"/>__,_._,___</span>
</BODY></HTML>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>
Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.2/1305 - Release Date: 2/29/2008 6:32 PM<BR>
</FONT> </P>