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<DIV><FONT size=2>Ken --</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>In response to your query, I think the consensus is that
etymologies and calques are basically in the same category, namely inheritance
from another language (including older forms of the same language). I suppose it
is possible, though, that a phrase could be a calque from one language, and the
words that make up the phrase have etymologies from other languages. Why do you
ask, anyway? I would imagine that you are trying to figure out how to label
something as being a calque in a dictionary you are working on, and you are
using Shoebox to develop the dictionary. So the question then is how one
would mark something as being a calque in a Shoebox database, and then
print it out the way you would want it to look.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Now as to the issue of whether a phrase can be a noun, I would
still say no. You say that "vital statistics office" functions as a noun. I'm
not sure what you mean by that, but I think that "functions as a noun" and "is a
noun" might be two different things. I might call a phrase like that a lexeme or
count it as a lexical entry, but that doesn't mean it is a word. Nouns are
words, and phrases consist of more than one word.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>We have these noun combinations all over the place in English,
where one noun modifies or qualifies another. Many years ago I remember reading
an article about this phenomenon in <EM>Verbatim</EM>. For example, the
U.S. National Parks Service (note "parks" modifying "service") is establishing a
Gullah/Geechee Cultural Heritage Corridor. Heritage is a noun that modifies
Corridor. And there is a government commission to oversee the development of the
Gullah/Geechee Cultural Heritage Corridor, which is called the Gullah/Geechee
Cultural Heritage Corridor Commission. A horrible name, really, but I hear
this phrase a lot these days because I happen to be a member of a
Gullah/Geechee Cultural Heritage Corridor Commission. That makes me a
Gullah/Geechee Cultural Heritage Corridor Commission member. And if we were to
meet over dinner, I suppose you could call it a Gullah/Geechee Cultural Heritage
Corridor Commission member dinner. This kind of recursion could go on forever,
where a noun is embedded in a noun phrase as a modifier of the head
noun.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Since I don't know the languages you were originally talking
about, what I am saying is based on English as an example. The only thing
that keeps the English phrase "vital statistics office" from being a complete NP
is the addition of a determiner at the beginning. One might call it a complex
nucleus of a noun phrase.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The best analysis I have see of this phenomenon in
English, where one noun modifies another, is a book by Peter Fries (1970),
<EM>Tagmeme Sequences in the English Noun Phrase</EM></FONT><FONT size=2>. He
calls the slot where one noun modifies another, a margin of close-knit
modification.</DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>-- David F</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ken_keyes@sil.org href="mailto:ken_keyes@sil.org">Kenneth Keyes</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 02, 2008 11:28
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Lexicog] Re: Lexical
Relations vs. Etymology</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>David, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks for responding. What I was trying to demonstrate
here was that this kk phrase is a compound noun is calque derived from the
Russian </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>"zapis aktov grazhdanskovo sostajanijie" = record of
documentation of the situation of citizens, i.e. vital statistics office.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I believe while this is a phrase,
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>"vital statistics office" functions as a noun. The phrase "vital
statistics" also functions as a noun. What I am trying to establish is,
what relationship do calques have to their original "loanwords"? For example,
a common kk calque for typesetting is <EM>maetin tery </EM>"to pick texts"
which is a calque from the Russian nabor tekstov, lit. "collection of
texts". This sounds strange in kk to me, it sounds like you're picking
fruit off a tree. There are many, many such calques in kk, as the language
struggles to transform itself from vocabulary suitable for nomadic
herdsmen to one which can accomodate a modern technological society.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=683391416-02032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Ken</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>David
Frank<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 02, 2008 10:18 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Lexicog] Re: Lexical
Relations vs. Etymology<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I can't read Cyrillic script and I'm not too familiar with
Shoebox or Toolbox or FieldWorks, but I think I see two problems here. It
looks to me like you are citing an example of a phrase, and I would not try to
give an etymology for a phrase. Words have etymologies; phrases don't. Or in
the case of a calque, I suppose you could consider the source from another
language as being a kind of etymology, but we wouldn't usually describe
phrases as having etymologies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Also, I wouldn't assign a part of speech to a phrase either.
It looks like you are calling this phrase a noun, and I don't think that is
appropriate. A phrase may contain a noun but wouldn't be called a
noun or any other part of speech. Instead of a word class label, some people
might want to assign a label that would be appropriate to phrases such as
"phr" or "np", but I prefer to just leave the part of speech blank for
anything I would put into a dictionary that is comprised of more than
one word.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>-- David Frank</FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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