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<DIV><FONT size=2>Cheryl --</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>One other thing that I think that is needed is for us to see
the raw standard format data (backslash codes) that went into producing this
MDF-formatted output. Do you have a way of putting that into an e-mail? There
clearly seems to be a problem, and someone who is more knowledgeable than I am
about how Shoebox/Toolbox works might be able tell you what the problem is right
off, based on how the output looks. But it would be easier to help if we could
see what the data input going into MDF looks like. What I would want to see is
which fields were used (for example \ps) and in what order they are. If we could
just see the data for <FONT face=Arial><U>a<SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">ŋka</U></FONT></FONT><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">, it would help us troubleshoot that type of
problem.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">As for the ones like <U>ammo</U></FONT><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> that are marked "idm" as the part of speech, I would
say that putting "idm" as a part of speech is at least part of the problem. What
would happen if you left the part of speech field blank for those subentries
that are marked "idm"? MDF is set up to make a line break whenever there is a
new part of speech label, and you don't want that.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">I would think that if you wanted to mark subentries as
being idioms, that would be less like marking them as nouns and verbs, and more
like marking them as rare or crude. In other words, it could be considered a
usage question rather than a grammatical question.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">If in addition to showing the standard format data
behind a couple of these entries that MDF formatted in a way that you don't
like, it would also help if you could manually adjust one of the
improperly-formatted entries like <U>ammo</U></FONT><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"> to make it look the way you think it ought to look, and
then show us. But I suspect that you don't know how you would like it to look,
and you only know that the way it does appear doesn't look
right.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">When years ago I produced a vernacular
language dictionary, I didn't handle idioms this way and I didn't use
Shoebox and MDF. I used a program that I designed myself, which was tailored to
the demands of one specific language and to my own preferences. I have to admit
that it was not worth the effort for me to make the program produce exactly what
I wanted every time, with no tweaking of the program's formatted output in order
to produce the published dictionary. I had to make some manual adjustments some
places. Sometimes that is the most reasonable solution. But you have problems
that look like they could be helped.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><IMG
alt="" hspace=0 src="cid:013a01c87fc1$5b8a5ff0$6800a8c0@Waxhaw.Jaars.Org"
align=baseline border=0></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS">Not being a Shoebox/Toolbox expert, it looks to me like
a problem is that you should not have given the part of speech again for sense
#2. Someone else reading this e-mail could probably confirm that. Giving a part
of speech automatically triggers a line break. I don't know what part of speech
"p" is, but that is beside the point.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face="Arial Unicode MS"></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>-- David</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=cheryl.reitz@shawcable.com
href="mailto:cheryl.reitz@shawcable.com">Cheryl Reitz</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 06, 2008 12:45
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Lexicog] Lexical Relations
vs. Etymology - using "idiom" in the \ps field</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT><BR></DIV><SPAN
class=085480917-06032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Many thanks,
David. Although I haven't a chance to prepare the raw data, I
just made this 6-page excerpt (2MB) available for viewing/download at this
link:</FONT></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN class=085480917-06032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><A
href="http://www.e-multiweb.com/secure/DikDik_20071219_excerpt.pdf">http://www.e-multiweb.com/secure/DikDik_20071219_excerpt.pdf</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=085480917-06032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=085480917-06032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The
"new-line" problem does not show up only for idioms, but for all parts of
speech. Samples of the problem in this excerpt are:</FONT>
<DIV><SPAN class=429323716-06032008><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
color=#000000><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial>ammo (2-idm, 3-idm, 4-idm), a<SPAN
class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">ŋka
(2-p), baalo (3-idm, 4-idm), baala (2-auxv), baawo (2-idm).
</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=429323716-06032008><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
color=#000000><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=429323716-06032008><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT
color=#0000ff><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><SPAN
class=085480917-06032008>We would prefer these members of the \ps
Range Set to be "behaving" under the sense numbers like members of
the \de or \ge Range Sets, using "wrap-around" behaviour. While it is
probably not possible to do this for the various parts of speech, which really
must be under \ps, the category idiom seems a little more like a separate
definition, behaving like a \de member. You can see the
"wrap-around" behaviour we are hoping to
get in:</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=429323716-06032008><FONT size=+0><FONT size=+0><FONT
size=+0><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><SPAN
class=085480917-06032008>ammo (1-v), amo (1, 2), baalo (1, 2), baawo (1),
baa</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=429323716-06032008><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><SPAN
class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">ŋ<SPAN
class=085480917-06032008>ja (1), babdo
(1,2)</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=429323716-06032008><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><SPAN
class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><SPAN
class=085480917-06032008></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=429323716-06032008><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
color=#000000><SPAN class=fstandard><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial><FONT size=2>This is a display problem which I can hand-correct in
an hour or so (maybe even create a macro), but of course would prefer to have
it fixed once and for all instead of having to manually correct it each
time we export the dictionary. <SPAN
class=085480917-06032008>Sorry, I'm only an amateur and may not know correct
terminology for describing this
problem.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=429323716-06032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=429323716-06032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Please note that this is very much a DRAFT, full of other minor
problems as well, some of which we have corrected since the PDF and others
we're still addressing. So we'd really appreciate it if you do not use
this in any way other than to <SPAN
class=085480917-06032008>troubleshoot</SPAN> this issue.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=429323716-06032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=429323716-06032008><SPAN class=085480917-06032008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks so much.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=429323716-06032008><SPAN class=085480917-06032008><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Cheryl</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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