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<DIV><SPAN class=671204122-11032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks
everyone, particularly Crockett and David Frank, for your input about the
way we've set up range sets and input the data. I think there is indeed a
problem with the way some of the \ps, \se, and \sn data has been
entered into our (MABAAN) Toolbox database. This is going onto our long
list of things to check for the second version of the Mabaan dictionary.
If anyone wants a PDF copy of (yesterday's) first edition, send me your e-mail
address and I'll send it via attached PDF (3 MB). We just completed the
first version yesterday (256 pages include 5000 Mabaan entries and an
English-Mabaan gloss) and we welcome input/suggestions from
anyone. Do not expect a perfectly polished creation; this was
completely done by two volunteers, one age 85 (using data collected by
several people over 30 years) and there was a hurry to simply get a first draft
out quickly, "warts and all" as some people on their way to Sudan
tomorrow wanted to bring a copy with them. Our future goals
are to improve things like the problem noted above, as well as change
to 100% Unicode (from Mabaan Sophia font) and possibly convert DB to Lexique
Pro so we can provide a searchable online version. Mainly we
hope to get further input about tones and vocabulary, feedback on paradigms,
more illustrations/photos, etc. from Mabaan speakers, particularly those still
living in Sudan. We've only begun tagging semantic content, and are
looking at using some standard codes and classes instead of our own in the
future. It is a very exciting thing to be part of a
dictionary like this which is so clearly a cooperatively-created,
living document. This dictionary shows Mabaan to
be a traditional and culturally-rich language; with care,
respect, and a little creativity it should continue
to thrive in this modern digital age.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=671204122-11032008></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=671204122-11032008>Cheryl
Reitz</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Crockett<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 06, 2008 9:38 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Lexicog] Lexical
Relations vs. Etymology - using "idiom" in the \ps field<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">Cheryl,<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">I know it is hard to mess with the MDF
outputs, but it might be possible. It could be just a change to a cc table that
needs to be made. Or maybe a change to the document style sheet. You had better
ask Toolbox help for that, though. It’s over my head. There is an email at the
SIL site, I think, for Toolbox help. You should write them directly or write to
the Toolbox List. You can get specific help for Toolbox there. They are usually
very good at responding.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">If worse comes to worse, you might get a
more preferable output from Lexique Pro. It will accept your Toolbox data and
output it to Word, but that would involve more work setting up the data to
export to Lexique Pro.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">I’m sending another message which
addresses what seems to be incorrect \sn entries. If the \sn data is entered
correctly, you might not need to change the Toolbox output. I think it will look
fine if you get the \sn data correct.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">Crockett<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com
[mailto:lexicograph<WBR>ylist@yahoogroup<WBR>s.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Cheryl Reitz<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, March 06, 2008 7:51
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [Lexicog] Lexical Relations
vs. Etymology - using "idiom" in the \ps field<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Importance:</SPAN></B>
High<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=ygrp-mlmsg>
<DIV id=ygrp-msg>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Thanks,
Crockett,</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Yes, this problem does turn up, as you
surmised, with any Data Range item under \ps other than
the first \ps item for the lexeme. There is both a new
sense number listing and a new line. There should be one or the other, but
not both, I think. If you can help us to troubleshoot this
problem, we will be most grateful as we hope to publish the first "official"
version this weekend. I have prepared a 2MB PDF file of the first few
pages of our Mabaan (a Sudan language) dictionary, which illustrates this
problem. I would have attached it but don't know the protocol here. If you
(or anyone else) wants to see this, let me know if I am allowed
to attach it to something sent out to the group. If not, please send
me an e-mail address outside the group and I will send the PDF to
you.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Warm
greetings,</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Cheryl</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=blue size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com
[mailto:lexicograph<WBR>ylist@yahoogroup<WBR>s.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Crockett<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, March 05, 2008 9:34
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [Lexicog] Lexical Relations
vs. Etymology - using "idiom" in the \ps field</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">I guess when some other \ps, like noun
or adverb, comes out in the printed dictionary the formatting is okay. Is that
right? If so, I don’t know why \ps idiom would change the formatting. It should
just come out like any other part of speech in the printed dictionary. I would
not put “idiom” under \sn. That is supposed to be something like a number or a
letter.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">Here is what the MDF manual says about
\ps:</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial-BoldMT size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">\ps </SPAN></FONT></B><B><I><FONT
face=TimesNewRomanPS-BoldItalicMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-STYLE: italic">Part of
speech</SPAN></FONT></I></B><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">:
[</SPAN></FONT><B><FONT face=Arial-BoldMT><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">\ps
vt, \ps n, \ps PREP, \ps PRO</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT
size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">]. This is
used to classify the</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPS-ItalicMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-STYLE: italic">vernacular </SPAN></FONT></I><FONT
face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">form, not the
English or national language gloss. For example, the</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">quality
</SPAN></FONT><I><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPS-ItalicMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-STYLE: italic">fat </SPAN></FONT></I><FONT
face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">might be an
adjective in English, but a verb in the vernacular</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">language.
</SPAN></FONT><B><FONT face=Arial-BoldMT><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">\ps
</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">labels should
be refined as one’s understanding of the language</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">grows. In
other words, don’t believe your early labels. Consistency in
labeling</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">is important.
The </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">RANGE SETS
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">in SHOEBOX can
help with this. There should</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">be no final
punctuation. MDF prints the </SPAN></FONT><B><FONT face=Arial-BoldMT><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">\ps </SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT
size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">contents as
italics (case is printed</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">as entered in
the original file) and adds a period [\ps vt </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Symbol
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: Symbol">→
</SPAN></FONT><I><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPS-ItalicMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-STYLE: italic">vt.</SPAN></FONT></I><FONT
face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">]. See chapter
9 for</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">a variety of
relevant issues and Appendix E for a starter list of abbreviations.
If</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">more than one
</SPAN></FONT><B><FONT face=Arial-BoldMT><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">\ps
</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">is used in an
entry (e.g. one sense as a noun and another as a</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">verb), then
MDF starts each new </SPAN></FONT><B><FONT face=Arial-BoldMT><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">\ps </SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT
size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">within an
entry or subentry at the</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">beginning of a
new line, dividing the entry into sections on the basis of the
</SPAN></FONT><B><FONT face=Arial-BoldMT><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">\ps</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=TimesNewRomanPSMT
size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'TimesNewRomanPSMT','serif'">.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">It looks like what is happening to your
friend’s data falls under the last sentence, but that should not just affect \ps
idiom. Maybe you can send an example of the data and output to show better what
is happening.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">Crockett</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com
[mailto:lexicograph<WBR>ylist@yahoogroup<WBR>s.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Cheryl Reitz<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, March 02, 2008 6:51
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [Lexicog] Lexical Relations
vs. Etymology</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-mlmsg>
<DIV id=ygrp-msg>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">My colleague, a retired linguistic
missionary (to Sudan) who is in the process of producing a
Toolbox dictionary, had been advised several years ago to put "idiom"
in the \ps Range Set, and she has several hundred idioms in her
database. The hierarchy is \lx (lexeme)>\se (subentry)>ps (part
of speech)>\sn (sense number). The positioning of "idiom" under
\ps creates a problem when we try to print the dictionary. Each
idiom, like any new subentry, starts on a new line. The items under \sn do
not start on new lines, which looks better and saves space. For the purpose
of printing, then, it might be better if "idiom" (like other items such as
\de [definitions] or \sy [synonyms]) were under \sn. However, I'm not sure
how we can do this using the standard MDF categories. Any
advice?</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue">Cheryl</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com
[mailto:lexicograph<WBR>ylist@yahoogroup<WBR>s.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Crockett<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday, March 01, 2008 10:16
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [Lexicog] Lexical Relations
vs. Etymology</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">Ken,</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">Where do you label something as an
idiom? I think some people label idioms in the part of speech field. I would
think you could use the part of speech field to call it a
calque.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#002060 size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #002060">Crockett</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com
[mailto:lexicograph<WBR>ylist@yahoogroup<WBR>s.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>David Frank<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, March 02, 2008 5:18
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Lexicog] Re: Lexical Relations
vs. Etymology</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=ygrp-mlmsg>
<DIV id=ygrp-msg>
<DIV id=ygrp-text>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I can't read Cyrillic script and I'm not too familiar
with Shoebox or Toolbox or FieldWorks, but I think I see two problems here. It
looks to me like you are citing an example of a phrase, and I would not try to
give an etymology for a phrase. Words have etymologies; phrases don't. Or in the
case of a calque, I suppose you could consider the source from another
language as being a kind of etymology, but we wouldn't usually describe
phrases as having etymologies.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Also, I wouldn't assign a part of speech to a phrase
either. It looks like you are calling this phrase a noun, and I don't think that
is appropriate. A phrase may contain a noun but wouldn't be called a
noun or any other part of speech. Instead of a word class label, some people
might want to assign a label that would be appropriate to phrases such as "phr"
or "np", but I prefer to just leave the part of speech blank for anything I
would put into a dictionary that is comprised of more than
one word.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-- David Frank</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">---- Original Message -----
<O></O></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=ken_keyes@sil.org
href="mailto:ken_keyes@sil.org">Kenneth Keyes</A>
</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=flex@lists.sil.org
href="mailto:flex@lists.sil.org">flex@lists.sil.<WBR>org</A> ; <A
title=lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@<WBR>yahoogroups.<WBR>com</A>
</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:24
AM</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> [Lexicog] Lexical Relations
vs. Etymology</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dear
All, </SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi, I
have another brainteaser for you:</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">What
relation do Calques bear to the language they are borrowed from? For example,
I have the following entries:</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ (АХАЖ) N Eng
vital statistics offfce - where changes in the lives of citizens are recorded
Kaz азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім Rus отдел
записи актов гражданского состояния </SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">АХАЖ Contr АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН
ЖАЗУ</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cf.
SFM export: </SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\lx
АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\sn
1</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\ps_en N</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\d_en
vital statistics offfce - where changes in the lives of citizens are
recorded</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\d_kk
азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын
бөлім</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">d</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ru</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> отдел записи актов гражданского
состояния</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\lx
АХАЖ</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\et
Contr</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\mn
АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">This
a calque from the Russian: </SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ЗАГС N Eng The government office where
vital statistics are recorded. Kaz азаматтық хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім
актілерін жазу Rus отдел <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">З</SPAN></B>аписи<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
А</SPAN></B>ктов<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
Г</SPAN></B>ражданского<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
С</SPAN></B>остояния<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"> </SPAN></B>calq: АХАЖ.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=FR
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">(sem. domains: admin. - administration.<WBR>)
{coll.}</SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=FR><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=FR
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\lx </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ЗАГС</SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=FR><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=FR
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\sn 1</SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=FR><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=FR
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\ps_en N</SPAN></FONT><SPAN lang=FR><O></O></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\d_en
The government office where vital statistics are
recorded.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\d_kk
азаматтық хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">d</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=RU
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ru</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <SPAN lang=RU>отдел записи актов гражданского
состояния</SPAN></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=red size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: red">\lf calq</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\lv
АХАЖ</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\is_en admin.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\sd_en administration</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">\u_en
coll.</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To
handle this case, I created a lexical function called “Calque”. However, this
is also the etymology of the word. How do I deal with the etymology? There are
tons of these cases (of calques from Russian) in Eurasian languages.
</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Thanks for considering this! </SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Best
regards,</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ken</SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=white size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: white"></SPAN></FONT><O></O></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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