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OK. There are all kinds of things that are named by V+O=S nouns that
are not imported from other countries/cultures as far as I can see;
this construction is quite productive. Surely, you can see it in
productive use most clearly when the item it is describing is new, and
quite commonly new items come from outside the speech community, but I
wouldn't have thought foreign-ness was an important feature of these
compounds.<br>
<br>
Yes, certainly these compounds are a part (a prolific part) of the
"vulgar" speech. But they are common in everybody's speech, as far as I
can tell: highbrow as well as vulgar.<br>
<br>
Anyway, they are a fascinating topic.<br>
<br>
--David Tuggy<br>
<br>
Michael Nicholas wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:671002.80756.qm@web23207.mail.ird.yahoo.com"
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<div>Dear David,</div>
<div> "Imported" meaning an object is invented. The country of origin
is not Spain. The object appears in Spain. It has to be given a name in
Spanish. I suspect that 150 years ago, French was the language spoken
by the cultured classes. I also suspect that if the imported object
already had a word to describe it in French, then a calque would be
applied.</div>
<div> I also think that although apposition obviously exists in
Spanish it is now the most popular way to create a description in
Spanish for an object which is new to the language. I believe this
descriptive process is so popular that it is even present in what would
be considered "vulgar" speech hence Plaza Castilla not Plaza de
Castilla or "Bocata jamón" and even in incorrect combinations such as
"un misil Sam" Finally, I rather think it is not a problem of "being
dense" but of my inability to explain myself with sufficient clarity!</div>
<div>Michael<br>
<b><i>David Tuggy <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org"><david_tuggy@sil.org></a></i></b> escribió:</div>
<blockquote class="replbq"
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
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<div>Who originally calqued from whom is of course a question for
historical linguists to answer if they can (and perhaps in this case
they can do so with some degree of certainty.) I am sure the V+O=S
construction is very firmly entrenched in Spanish at this point and not
foreign in any relevant synchronic sense I can think of. The "but" in
the phrase "but 'calques'" I would object to. Seeing them as calques
doesn't explain them away.<br>
<br>
I don't know what the phrase means, "if there is a Spanish construction
that is visually the same it will attract 'calques'." I can think of a
couple of ways it could be understood, and agree with at least one of
them, but I'm confused by it.<br>
<br>
What does it mean for an object to be "imported"? <br>
<br>
Are you saying that each individual compound goes through these three
stages, that "matamoscas" (kills-flies) 'flyswatter' was once a N+A
compound and some day will be N+N? Surely not? So what are you saying?
Granted that Spanish does have all three compound types (and
others)—why or where does it help us to think of one type evolving into
another? <br>
<br>
Also, I don't get the point of the examples. Granted, techo solar is
N+A and probably best seen as a phrase rather than a compound.
Guardacoches is a 3ps V + (obj) N, whether it is a phrase or a compound
probably being somewhat moot (I would lean towards calling it a
compound; people write it both as one word [5K on Google] and as two
[1K incl hyphenated guarda-coches]<wbr>). Delantero centro can be taken
as N+N (but also as N+A, or A+A -- why not?) and is likely a phrase as
opposed to a compound. What does Plaza Castilla have to do with it, or
how is its use in popular speech different from its use in other genres?<br>
<br>
Sorry if I'm being dense.<br>
<br>
--David Tuggy<br>
<br>
Michael Nicholas wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:288411.71391.qm@web23212.mail.ird.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div>Dear David, </div>
<div>I was once told by a French lexicographer that the modern
objects in Spanish which are identified by the "para" initial
component are but "calques" from the French. I was also told that if
there is a Spanish construction that is visually the same it will
attract "calques" </div>
<div>I think compounds in Spanish - when they refer to objects
that are imported tend to go through the stages of: noun plus adjective
(non compound) verb - third person singular - plus noun and finally
evolve into noun plus noun. This can be seen modern terms So: techo
solar, guarda coches, delantero centro and even - in popular speech -
Plaza Castilla<br>
<br>
<b><i>David Tuggy <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org"><david_tuggy@<wbr>sil.org></a></i></b>
escribió:</div>
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