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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:navy'>In LA (c.1990) one of my students in my evening class
worked at a {lavautos}.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:navy'>Almost all of my students were second generation Hispanics
with a meaningless<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:navy'>high school diploma: they were functional illiterates in
both Spanish and English;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:navy'>therefore, my example may be idiosyncratic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:navy'>I wish that I had had access to a group such as this one
when I was writing my<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:navy'>1982 dissertation on comparing and contrasting mass, count,
and limited count <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:navy'>nouns in English and Spanish.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:navy'>Scott<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
face=Tahoma><span style='font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:<st1:PersonName w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName>]
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, March 20, 2008
4:19 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Lexicog] Digest Number
949</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;line-height:120%'><font size=2
color=black face=Georgia><span style='font-size:10.0pt;line-height:120%;
font-family:Georgia'><br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://wiktionarydev.leuksman.com"
title="blocked::http://wiktionarydev.leuksman.com/"><font color="#1e66ae"
title="blocked::http://wiktionarydev.leuksman.com/"><span
title="blocked::http://wiktionarydev.leuksman.com/"><span style='color:#1E66AE'>http://wiktionaryde<wbr
title="blocked::http://wiktionarydev.leuksman.com/">v.leuksman.<wbr
title="blocked::http://wiktionarydev.leuksman.com/">com</span></span></font></a>
<a href="http://linguaphile.sf.net" title="blocked::http://linguaphile.sf.net/"><font
color="#1e66ae" title="blocked::http://linguaphile.sf.net/"><span
title="blocked::http://linguaphile.sf.net/"><span style='color:#1E66AE'>http://linguaphile.<wbr
title="blocked::http://linguaphile.sf.net/">sf.net</span></span></font></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;line-height:140%'><font size=1
color=black face=Verdana><span style='font-size:7.5pt;line-height:140%;
font-family:Verdana'><a href="#toc#toc" title="blocked::#toc"><font
color="#1e66ae" title="blocked::#toc"><span title="blocked::#toc"><span
style='color:#1E66AE'>Back to top </span></span></font></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;line-height:140%'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;line-height:140%'><a
href="mailto:hippytrail@gmail.com?Subject=Re%3A%20Spanish%20V%20%2B%20O%20%3D%20S%20compounds%20%28was%20Re%3A%20Lexical%20Relations%20vs%2E%20Etymo"
title="blocked::mailto:hippytrail@gmail.com?Subject=Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo"><font
color="#1e66ae"
title="blocked::mailto:hippytrail@gmail.com?Subject=Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo"><span
title="blocked::mailto:hippytrail@gmail.com?Subject=Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo"><span
style='color:#1E66AE'>Reply to <span
title="blocked::mailto:hippytrail@gmail.com?Subject=Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo"><span
class=bld1><b>sender</b></span></span> </span></span></font></a>| <a
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Spanish%20V%20%2B%20O%20%3D%20S%20compounds%20%28was%20Re%3A%20Lexical%20Relations%20vs%2E%20Etymo"
title="blocked::mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com?Subject= Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo"><font
color="#1e66ae"
title="blocked::mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com?Subject= Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo"><span
title="blocked::mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com?Subject= Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo"><span
style='color:#1E66AE'>Reply to <span
title="blocked::mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com?Subject= Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo"><span
class=bld1><b>group</b></span></span> </span></span></font></a>| <a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJrNjd0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjE-?act=reply&messageNum=4360"
title="blocked::http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJrNjd0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjE-?act=reply&messageNum=4360"><font
color="#1e66ae"
title="blocked::http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJrNjd0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjE-?act=reply&messageNum=4360"><span
title="blocked::http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJrNjd0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjE-?act=reply&messageNum=4360"><span
style='color:#1E66AE'>Reply <span
title="blocked::http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJyZHJrNjd0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjE-?act=reply&messageNum=4360"><span
class=bld1><b>via web post</b></span></span> </span></span></font></a><br>
<a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/message/4295;_ylc=X3oDMTM2cGx1NXJ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjEEdHBjSWQDNDI5NQ--"
title="blocked::http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/message/4295;_ylc=X3oDMTM2cGx1NXJ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjEEdHBjSWQDNDI5NQ--"><font
color="#1e66ae"
title="blocked::http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/message/4295;_ylc=X3oDMTM2cGx1NXJ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjEEdHBjSWQDNDI5NQ--"><span
title="blocked::http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/message/4295;_ylc=X3oDMTM2cGx1NXJ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYwBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjEEdHBjSWQDNDI5NQ--"><span
style='color:#1E66AE'>Messages in this topic </span></span></font></a>(29) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:93.75pt'><font size=1 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt'>1.6. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
3.75pt;margin-left:.5in'><a name=1.6></a><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/message/4363;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNTM2bnI3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjE-"
title="blocked::http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/message/4363;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNTM2bnI3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjE-"><b><font
color="#1e66ae" face=Georgia
title="blocked::http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/message/4363;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNTM2bnI3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjE-"><span
title="blocked::http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/message/4363;_ylc=X3oDMTJyNTM2bnI3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRtc2dJZAM0MzYzBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyMDYwMDExMjE-"><span
style='font-family:Georgia;color:#1E66AE;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none'>Re:
Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo </span></span></font></b></a></span></font><b><font
face=Georgia><span style='font-family:Georgia;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Posted by:
"David Tuggy" <a
href="mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Spanish%20V%20%2B%20O%20%3D%20S%20compounds%20%28was%20Re%3A%20Lexical%20Relations%20vs%2E%20Etymo"
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org?Subject= Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo"><font
color="#1e66ae"
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org?Subject= Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo"><span
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org?Subject= Re: Spanish V + O = S compounds (was Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymo"><span
style='color:#1E66AE'>david_tuggy@sil.org </span></span></font></a> <a
href="http://profiles.yahoo.com/davidtuggy"
title="blocked::http://profiles.yahoo.com/davidtuggy"><font color="#1e66ae"
title="blocked::http://profiles.yahoo.com/davidtuggy"><span
title="blocked::http://profiles.yahoo.com/davidtuggy"><span style='color:#1E66AE'>davidtuggy
</span></span></font></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
15.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=1 color=black face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold'>Wed
Mar 19, 2008 9:56 pm (PDT) </span></font></b><b><font size=1
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;line-height:120%'><font size=2
color=black face=Georgia><span style='font-size:10.0pt;line-height:120%;
font-family:Georgia'>lavacoches is also common in (some parts of) <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Mexico</st1:country-region></st1:place>,
usually<br>
written as one word. The awkwardness of lavaautos for reading is<br>
probably more of a factor than any structural difference between<br>
compound and phrase.<br>
<br>
It looks like you (or somebody) went through my article and got<br>
even the nonce-form espantacucarachas. Cool.<br>
<br>
An interesting subcase is forms like trepamonos<br>
[clambers-monkeys] 'jungle gym' and Cantarranas [sings-frogs]<br>
'Frog-croak creek' (both in the Wiki list) where the noun is<br>
subject, not object of the verb (V+S=Instr/Loc?<wbr>). Yet the verb<br>
continues to be 3psg, and the noun to be plural: you say neither<br>
trepanmonos nor trepamono.<br>
<br>
Anyway, lots of fun.<br>
<br>
--David T<br>
<br>
Andrew Dunbar wrote: On Wiktionary I have been building a<br>
collection of these terms<br>
<<a
href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds"
title="blocked::http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds"><font
color="#1e66ae"
title="blocked::http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds"><span
title="blocked::http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds"><span
style='color:#1E66AE'>http://en.wiktionar<wbr
title="blocked::http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds">y.org/wiki/<wbr
title="blocked::http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds">Category:<wbr
title="blocked::http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds">Spanish_verb_<wbr
title="blocked::http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds">plus_plural_<wbr
title="blocked::http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds">\<br
title="blocked::http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds">
noun_compounds</span></span></font></a>> which everybody is welcome to
contribute to.<br>
<br>
An intersting new one I've been watching in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Mexico</st1:country-region></st1:place> is "lava<br>
autos" which I have seen written in one or two words in the<br>
singular and plural form, always on signs with no other context.<br>
In <st1:place w:st="on">Central America</st1:place> I saw car washes go by
several names but not<br>
this one.<br>
<br>
Andrew Dunbar.<br>
<br>
On 20/03/2008, David Tuggy <<a href="mailto:david_tuggy%40sil.org"
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org"><font color="#1e66ae"
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org"><span
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org"><span style='color:#1E66AE'>david_tuggy@<wbr
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org">sil.org</span></span></font></a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:david_tuggy%40sil.org"
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org"><font color="#1e66ae"
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org"><span
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org"><span style='color:#1E66AE'>david_tuggy@<wbr
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org">sil.org</span></span></font></a>>
> wrote: OK. There are all<br>
kinds of things that are named by V+O=S nouns that are not<br>
imported from other countries/cultures as far as I can see; this<br>
construction is quite productive. Surely, you can see it in<br>
productive use most clearly when the item it is describing is<br>
new, and quite commonly new items come from outside the speech<br>
community, but I wouldn't have thought foreign-ness was an<br>
important feature of these compounds.<br>
<br>
Yes, certainly these compounds are a part (a prolific part) of<br>
the "vulgar" speech. But they are common in everybody's speech,<br>
as far as I can tell: highbrow as well as vulgar.<br>
<br>
Anyway, they are a fascinating topic.<br>
<br>
--David Tuggy<br>
<br>
Michael Nicholas wrote: Dear David, <br>
"Imported" meaning an object is invented. The country of<br>
origin is not <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Spain</st1:country-region></st1:place>.
The object appears in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Spain</st1:country-region></st1:place>.
It has to be<br>
given a name in Spanish. I suspect that 150 years ago, French was<br>
the language spoken by the cultured classes. I also suspect that<br>
if the imported object already had a word to describe it in<br>
French, then a calque would be applied. I also think<br>
that although apposition obviously exists in Spanish it is now<br>
the most popular way to create a description in Spanish for an<br>
object which is new to the language. I believe this descriptive<br>
process is so popular that it is even present in what would be<br>
considered "vulgar" speech hence <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">Plaza</st1:PlaceType> <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Castilla</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceName w:st="on">not</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Plaza</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>
de<br>
Castilla or "Bocata jamón" and even in incorrect<br>
combinations such as "un misil Sam" Finally, I rather think<br>
it is not a problem of "being dense" but of my inability to<br>
explain myself with sufficient clarity! Michael<br>
David Tuggy <<a href="mailto:david_tuggy%40sil.org"
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org"><font color="#1e66ae"
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org"><span
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org"><span style='color:#1E66AE'>david_tuggy@<wbr
title="blocked::mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org">sil.org</span></span></font></a>>
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<br>
escribió: Who originally calqued from<br>
whom is of course a question for historical linguists to answer<br>
if they can (and perhaps in this case they can do so with some<br>
degree of certainty.) I am sure the V+O=S construction is very<br>
firmly entrenched in Spanish at this point and not foreign in any<br>
relevant synchronic sense I can think of. The "but" in the phrase<br>
"but 'calques'" I would object to. Seeing them as calques doesn't<br>
explain them away.<br>
<br>
I don't know what the phrase means, "if there is a Spanish<br>
construction that is visually the same it will attract<br>
'calques'." I can think of a couple of ways it could be<br>
understood, and agree with at least one of them, but I'm confused<br>
by it.<br>
<br>
What does it mean for an object to be "imported"?<br>
<br>
Are you saying that each individual compound goes through these<br>
three stages, that "matamoscas" (kills-flies) 'flyswatter' was<br>
once a N+A compound and some day will be N+N? Surely not? So what<br>
are you saying? Granted that Spanish does have all three compound<br>
types (and others)—why or where does it help us to think of<br>
one type evolving into another?<br>
<br>
Also, I don't get the point of the examples. Granted, techo solar<br>
is N+A and probably best seen as a phrase rather than a compound.<br>
Guardacoches is a 3ps V + (obj) N, whether it is a phrase or a<br>
compound probably being somewhat moot (I would lean towards<br>
calling it a compound; people write it both as one word [5K on<br>
Google] and as two [1K incl hyphenated guarda-coches]<wbr>). Delantero<br>
centro can be taken as N+N (but also as N+A, or A+A -- why not?)<br>
and is likely a phrase as opposed to a compound. What does Plaza<br>
Castilla have to do with it, or how is its use in popular speech<br>
different from its use in other genres?<br>
<br>
Sorry if I'm being dense.<br>
<br>
--David Tuggy<br>
<br>
Michael Nicholas wrote: Dear David, <br>
I was once told by a French lexicographer that the modern<br>
objects in Spanish which are identified by the "para" initial<br>
component are but "calques" from the French. I was also<br>
told that if there is a Spanish construction that is visually<br>
the same it will attract "calques" I think compounds<br>
in Spanish - when they refer to objects that are imported tend to<br>
go through the stages of: noun plus adjective (non<br>
compound) verb - third person singular - plus noun and<br>
finally evolve into noun plus noun. This can be seen modern terms<br>
So: techo solar, guarda coches, delantero centro and even -<br>
in popular speech - Plaza Castilla<br>
<br>
David Tuggy <<a href="mailto:david_tuggy%40sil.org"
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<br>
escribió: <snip><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Celtic><span style='font-size:
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