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<div>Dear David,</div> <div>"Cantamañanas " ( all mouth and no trousers" the obscene "soplapollas" also the euphemism "soplagaitas" instead of the obscenity and a very good one: "comecocos" name given to space invader style computer games, and of course "marcapasos"</div> <div>Michael<BR><BR><B><I>David Tuggy <david_tuggy@sil.org></I></B> escribió:</div> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <div>lavacoches is also common in (some parts of) Mexico, usually written as one word. The awkwardness of lavaautos for reading is probably more of a factor than any structural difference
between compound and phrase. <BR><BR>It looks like you (or somebody) went through my article and got even the nonce-form espantacucarachas. Cool. <BR><BR>An interesting subcase is forms like trepamonos [clambers-monkeys] 'jungle gym' and Cantarranas [sings-frogs] 'Frog-croak creek' (both in the Wiki list) where the noun is subject, not object of the verb (V+S=Instr/Loc?<WBR>). Yet the verb continues to be 3psg, and the noun to be plural: you say neither trepanmonos nor trepamono.<BR><BR>Anyway, lots of fun.<BR><BR>--David T<BR><BR>Andrew Dunbar wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:ba1b6b9f0803191600l1e568cc4n32f3163526cfba20@mail.gmail.com type="cite">On Wiktionary I have been building <A href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Spanish_verb_plus_plural_noun_compounds" moz="true">a collection of these terms</A> which everybody is welcome to contribute to.<BR><BR>An intersting new one I've been watching in Mexico is "lava autos" which I have seen written in one or two words in
the singular and plural form, always on signs with no other context. In Central America I saw car washes go by several names but not this one.<BR><BR>Andrew Dunbar.<BR><BR>On 20/03/2008, <B class=gmail_sendername>David Tuggy</B> <<A href="mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org" moz="true">david_tuggy@<WBR>sil.org</A>> wrote: <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote></SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"> <DIV text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">OK. There are all kinds of things that are named by V+O=S nouns that are not imported from other countries/cultures as far as I can see; this construction is quite productive. Surely, you can see it in productive use most clearly when the item it is describing is new, and quite commonly new items come from outside the speech community, but I wouldn't have thought foreign-ness was an important feature of these compounds.<BR><BR>Yes, certainly these compounds are a part (a prolific part) of the "vulgar"
speech. But they are common in everybody's speech, as far as I can tell: highbrow as well as vulgar.<BR><BR>Anyway, they are a fascinating topic. <DIV><SPAN class=e id=q_118c8e3e534a039c_1><BR><BR>--David Tuggy<BR><BR>Michael Nicholas wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV>Dear David,</DIV> <DIV> "Imported" meaning an object is invented. The country of origin is not Spain. The object appears in Spain. It has to be given a name in Spanish. I suspect that 150 years ago, French was the language spoken by the cultured classes. I also suspect that if the imported object already had a word to describe it in French, then a calque would be applied.</DIV> <DIV> I also think that although apposition obviously exists in Spanish it is now the most popular way to create a description in Spanish for an object which is new to the language. I believe this descriptive process is so popular that it is even present in what would be considered "vulgar" speech hence Plaza
Castilla not Plaza de Castilla or "Bocata jamón" and even in incorrect combinations such as "un misil Sam" Finally, I rather think it is not a problem of "being dense" but of my inability to explain myself with sufficient clarity!</DIV> <DIV>Michael<BR><B><I>David Tuggy <A href="mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org" target=_blank moz="true"><david_tuggy@<WBR>sil.org></A></I></B> escribió:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"> <DIV> <DIV>Who originally calqued from whom is of course a question for historical linguists to answer if they can (and perhaps in this case they can do so with some degree of certainty.) I am sure the V+O=S construction is very firmly entrenched in Spanish at this point and not foreign in any relevant synchronic sense I can think of. The "but" in the phrase "but 'calques'" I would object to. Seeing them as calques doesn't explain them away.<BR><BR>I don't know what the phrase means, "if there is a Spanish construction
that is visually the same it will attract 'calques'." I can think of a couple of ways it could be understood, and agree with at least one of them, but I'm confused by it.<BR><BR>What does it mean for an object to be "imported"? <BR><BR>Are you saying that each individual compound goes through these three stages, that "matamoscas" (kills-flies) 'flyswatter' was once a N+A compound and some day will be N+N? Surely not? So what are you saying? Granted that Spanish does have all three compound types (and others)—why or where does it help us to think of one type evolving into another? <BR><BR>Also, I don't get the point of the examples. Granted, techo solar is N+A and probably best seen as a phrase rather than a compound. Guardacoches is a 3ps V + (obj) N, whether it is a phrase or a compound probably being somewhat moot (I would lean towards calling it a compound; people write it both as one word [5K on Google] and as two [1K incl hyphenated guarda-coches]<WBR>). Delantero
centro can be taken as N+N (but also as N+A, or A+A -- why not?) and is likely a phrase as opposed to a compound. What does Plaza Castilla have to do with it, or how is its use in popular speech different from its use in other genres?<BR><BR>Sorry if I'm being dense.<BR><BR>--David Tuggy<BR><BR>Michael Nicholas wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV>Dear David, </DIV> <DIV>I was once told by a French lexicographer that the modern objects in Spanish which are identified by the "para" initial component are but "calques" from the French. I was also told that if there is a Spanish construction that is visually the same it will attract "calques" </DIV> <DIV>I think compounds in Spanish - when they refer to objects that are imported tend to go through the stages of: noun plus adjective (non compound) verb - third person singular - plus noun and finally evolve into noun plus noun. This can be seen modern terms So: techo solar, guarda coches,
delantero centro and even - in popular speech - Plaza Castilla<BR><BR><B><I>David Tuggy <A href="mailto:david_tuggy@sil.org" target=_blank moz="true"><david_tuggy@<WBR>sil.org></A></I></B> escribió:</DIV><snip><SPAN style="COLOR: white"></SPAN> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <div></div> <HR SIZE=1> <BR><FONT face=Verdana size=-2>Enviado desde Correo Yahoo!<BR><A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=52431/*http://es.docs.yahoo.com/mail/overview/index.html" target=_blank moz="true">Disfruta de una bandeja de entrada más inteligente.</A>.<BR></FONT><SPAN style="COLOR: white" width="1"></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="COLOR: white" width="1"></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR><A href="http://wiktionarydev.leuksman.com/" moz="true">http://wiktionaryde<WBR>v.leuksman.<WBR>com</A> <A href="http://linguaphile.sf.net/" moz="true">http://linguaphile.<WBR>sf.net</A>
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<hr size=1><br><font face="Verdana" size="-2">Enviado desde Correo Yahoo!<br><a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=52431/*http://es.docs.yahoo.com/mail/overview/index.html">Disfruta de una bandeja de entrada más inteligente.</a>.<br></font>
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