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The “on me” malefactive or detrimentative usage is socially tagged and
stigmatized to some degree. I remember attempting to use it in an
article in an effort to gloss some Spanish sentences with an “ethical
dative”, and having reviewers of the article object.<br>
<br>
To me it works to say that both benefactive and malefactive have in
common the notion “affecting the object”. Some languages may have
different ways to say “benefiting the object” from “to the detriment of
the object” and distinguish them sharply, but many languages latch on
to “affecting the object” and let the verb semantics or other
contextual clues cue beneficial vs. malefactive meaning. <br>
<br>
E.g. Nahuatl causative/applicatives can come in either benefactive or
detrimentative flavors. It is hard to think of a case where <i>mitztlakualtia
</i>(you-food-caus/applic) “he/she feeds you, gives you food” will be
detrimental to you, so that one is pretty strongly benefactive. But <i>mitzkīxtilia</i>
(you-emerge-cause-applic) “he/she takes (it) away from/out of you” is
usually used for taking good things away, so tends to be
detrimentative. Yet if someone removes a splinter from your hand, or if
a doctor takes your appendix out, it is for your benefit.<br>
<br>
If you have to give one meaning to the applicative or dative or “on me”
or whatever other construction in such cases, you’d say it means
“affecting”. But it’s best to say that *and* give as full an indication
as possible of the range of cases. Making the generalization should not
(and cannot without loss) mean obliterating the specifics.<br>
<br>
--David Tuggy<br>
<br>
Marc FRYD wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:48FCBFC1.6020007@univ-poitiers.fr" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
Don't mention it.<br>
Marc<br>
<br>
<br>
Kenneth Keyes wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:001901c932d5$a4d97f70$6401a8c0@lifebook"
type="cite">
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p> </p>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="779015316-20102008"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Wow, Thank you John, and
everyone else, Mike, Benjamin, Scott! I'll search on our language for
this, and ask my local colleague how this would be expressed in his
language!</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="779015316-20102008"></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="779015316-20102008"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">I'm jazzed!</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="779015316-20102008"></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="779015316-20102008"><font
color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Ken</font></span></div>
<br>
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left"
lang="en-us">
<hr tabindex="-1"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b>
lexicographylist@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:lexicograph">mailto:lexicograph</a><wbr>ylist@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Roberts<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 20, 2008 1:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> lexicographylist@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lexicog] meaning and usage of "on me"<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>Dear Ken,<br>
<br>
This form of 'on me' in English can be categorized as the malefactive.
In many languages the form that is used to express the benefactive is
also used to express the malefactive, a deed done for the disbenefit of
someone. English is a language that uses different forms to express
benefactive/<wbr>malefactive. Typically English uses 'for' to express
benefactive and 'on' to express malefactive.<br>
<br>
In Amele (Papuan) the same form is used to express both notions.
Benefactive can be expressed by an applied object, as in (1), or by the
postposition 'nu', as in (2). But malefactive can only be expressed by
an applied object, as in (3) and (4). <br>
<br>
1) Jo eu ceh-i-t-i-a.<br>
house that build-APPL-1sg.<wbr>OO-3sg.SU-<wbr>TODP<br>
'He built that house for me.'<br>
<br>
2) Jo eu ija=nu ceh-ei-a.<br>
house that 1sg=for build-3sg.SU-<wbr>TODP<br>
'He built that house for me.'<br>
<br>
3) Uqa ija=na ho q-i-t-i-a.<br>
3sg<span> </span>1sg=of pig hit-APPL-1sg.<wbr>OO-3sg.SU-<wbr>TODP
<br>
‘He killed my pig on me.’ <br>
<br>
4) Ene<span> </span>cain<span> </span>salal-i-t-ag-<wbr>aun.<br>
here<span> </span>PROH<span> </span>slide-APPL-1sg.<wbr>OO-2sg.SU-<wbr>NEGF
<br>
‘Don’t slide here and annoy me (coll. don’t slide on me here).’<br>
<br>
There appear to be a number of articles posted on the internet
describing benefactive/<wbr>malefactive marking in different languages.<br>
<br>
John Roberts<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kenneth Keyes wrote: </p>
<blockquote cite="mid:001101c931ec$d10b2060$6401a8c0@lifebook"
type="cite">?
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">Dear All, </span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">Just a quick query. Have you thought about
the phrase "on me" when preceded by a verb? Someone recently asked me
about the meaning of "on me". He quoted Harry Truman's statement
regarding Gen. Douglas MacArthur's insubordination: "I don't want him
to resign <strong><u>on me</u></strong>, I want him fired!" What do
you think of the phrase "on me"? Is is a transitivizer? What does it <strong><u>mean</u></strong>?
This is different than its usual meaning as preposition as in the
famous "lean on me". I think it must mean "without my permission", or
"against my will". </span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">Here are some examples I thought of: </span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">Don't leave <strong>on me</strong>.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">Don't quit <strong>on me</strong>. </span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">Don't up and marry <strong>on me</strong>.
</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">Don't die <strong>on me</strong>!</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">I hope he doesn't...on me. </span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">I'm afraid he might...on me. </span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">Can you think of other examples? (Just a
hint, using Google wasn't very helpful.)</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">Is there a text corpus where we can specify
"any verb [any tense, any person, any number ]" followed by the phrase
"on" followed by an accusative/dative personal pronoun? How long can a
phrasal verb incorporating "on me" be?</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">I am fascinated by this question. I hope
you are too. Many thanks in advance, </span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008">Ken</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span
class="938365212-19102008"></span></font> </div>
<span style="color: white;" width="1"></span></blockquote>
<br>
</div>
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<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dr. Marc FRYD
Senior Lecturer in English Linguistics
Faculté des Lettres et des Langues
Université de Poitiers
95 avenue du Recteur Pineau
86022, Poitiers, France
Office: 05 49 45 48 11
Cell: 06 76 28 18 50
</pre>
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