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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I’ve always believed that idioms
should be included in a dictionary. What has not been so clear is how many, and
what phrases qualify. Some of the things I’ve read recently suggest that
users would benefit from an indication of the collocational patterns of a word.
But if we are looking at tens of thousands of set phrases, surely documenting
those would take precedence? If grammarians generalize, but should also
“list massively”, then we lexicographers must list even more
massively. (The picture comes to mind of a ship listing dangerously to one
side.) So here are my questions:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>How do we collect idioms? Suggested
answers: (1) Search our text corpus. (2) Use the DDP word collection method.
(3) Go through the dictionary and for each single word try to think of idioms
that use the word.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>On what basis do we include an idiom in
our dictionary (if we have space restrictions)? Suggested answers: (1) Include
frequently used idioms (if you have a way to determine frequency, such as a
large text corpus).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>How do we deal with them? Suggested
answers: (1) Just list them at the end of the entry for one or more of the
constituent words. Don’t even attempt to describe or define them. (2)
Create a main entry for each and describe them like any other lexeme. This
option can create problems for alphabetizing idioms, making it hard for the
user to find the entry. Where will the user look to find ‘I don’t
care’? Under ‘I’ or ‘care’? (2) Create a subentry
for each and append them to one or more of the constituent words.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>So, what have the rest of you done? How
have you handled idioms? What problems have you encountered and what solutions
did you come up with? I would really like to have a good handle on this issue
and I don’t feel like I do.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Ron Moe<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>David Tuggy<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, October 20, 2008
9:00 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Lexicog] idioms</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Ronald
Moe wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>Scott N. wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>“</span></font>Bye the way, don't think that a collection of
ten or twelve thousand idioms is nearly enough to call it comprehensive. It
doesn't <br>
work that way.<font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>”</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>Scott, are you saying that there are more than 12,000 idioms in
English? Do you have an estimate of how many there are, or does it not work that
way? I suspect that ‘idioms’ grade off into ‘common
collocates’, but I’m not an expert on this subject. I’ve
written a few little things on the subject, but feel like I’m in the
dark. Can you enlighten us or direct us to some good books/articles on the
subject?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>Ron Moe<br>
</span></font><font size=2 color=white face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:white'>Ver</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Yes, “idioms”
clearly grade into common collocates. They might be defined as common
collocates that are strikingly irregular or unpredictable. But common
collocates, whatever their degree of regularity/predictability, are learned in
massive numbers by native speakers. Ron Langacker has written some on this.
Pardon the long quote, but it’s surely relevant to lexicography:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 color=maroon face=Gentium><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Gentium;color:maroon'>This dichotomous perspective [of syntax vs.
lexicon] made it inevitable that a large body of data belonging to neither
category would be mostly ignored. I refer here to the huge set of stock
phrases, familiar collocations, formulaic expressions, and standard usages that
can be found in any language and thoroughly permeate its use. Here is a small,
random sample from English: <i><span style='font-style:italic'>take it for
granted that, hold … responsible for, express an interest in, great idea,
tough competitor, have a lot of class, I don’t care, kill two birds with
one stone, good to see you, mow the lawn, turn the page, let the cat out, have
great respect for, ready to go, play fair, I’ll do the best I can, answer
the phone, </span></i>and<i><span style='font-style:italic'> never want to see
… again</span></i>. Or consider these examples from the opening paragraph
of this section (1.2.2): <i><span style='font-style:italic'>fundamental
requirement, empirical science, known facts, other things being equal, as if,
theory account for … data, more … rather than less, in actual
practice, as such, in the context of, if only, very rudimentary, a matter of
interpretation, preliminary analysis, deriving from, a set of, underlying
assumptions,</span></i> and <i><span style='font-style:italic'>object of study</span></i>.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=maroon face=Gentium><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Gentium;color:maroon'>There are literally thousands of these <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>conventional expressions </span></b>in a given
language, and knowing them is essential to speaking it well. This is why a
seemingly perfect knowledge of the grammar of a language (in the narrow sense)
does not guarantee fluency in it; learning its full complement of conventional
expressions is probably by far the largest task involved in mastering it. Yet
conventional expressions have received so little attention that I found it
necessary to invent this term for the class as a whole. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=maroon face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;color:maroon'>…</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=maroon face=Gentium><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Gentium;color:maroon'>Inasmuch as it characterizes a
speaker’s knowledge of linguistic convention, the grammar [i.e. the
linguistic description] of a language is responsible for listing its full set
of conventional expressions (such as <i><span style='font-style:italic'>go for
a walk, absolutely incredible, have a good time, corporate greed, keep an eye
out for, mind your own business, rise and shine, cheap imitation, the seconds
are ticking away, and so on, </span></i>and so on). To furnish such a list
would obviously be a vast undertaking, for there are many thousands of such
expressions, and new ones are always forming; the question might therefore bge
raised whether it is actually necessary or desirable to do so.* A grammar
listing all conventional expressions would be massively complex, and it might
be objected that such a list would contribute nothing in the way of insight or
general principles.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=maroon face=Gentium><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Gentium;color:maroon'>[*Footnote: This issue is addressed on the
theoretical level, not in terms of what a linguist will actually be expected to
do when he gets up tomorrow. No one is presently capable of writing the
cognitive grammar of a language, just as no one is about to write a full
generative grammar. It is important, however, to reach some understanding of
what a grammar would consist of were we really able to write one.]</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=maroon face=Gentium><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Gentium;color:maroon'>The reluctance of generative grammarians to
concern themselves seriously with conventional expressions is largely inspired
by their abhorrence of lists. Obviously their talents are better devoted to the
pursuit of general rules and principles, which have broader import than the
statement of idiosyncrasies. It would be fallacious, however, to invoke the
principle of economy to argue that conventional expressions should not be
listed in a grammar [or a lexicon-d.t.]—on could just as well argue that
phonology should be excluded from a linguistic description because a grammar
containing a phonological component is more complex than a grammar without one.
The principle of economy must be interpreted in relation to other
considerations, in particular the requirement of factuality: true simplicity is
not achieved just be omitting relevant facts. Questions of economy are
meaningfully raised only with reference to a particular body of data. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=maroon face=Gentium><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Gentium;color:maroon'>The issue of whether conventional expressions
should be included in a grammar is factual rather than methodological in a
framework taking seriously the goal of psychological reality in linguistic
description. If a speaker does in fact learn a large set of conventional
expressions as fixed units, it is incumbent on the grammar to represent this
fact by providing an inventory of these expressions. The simplest description
that accurately accommodates all the data must by definition include such a
list.** <br>
—Langacker</span></font><font color=maroon><span style='color:
maroon'> <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Foundations of Cognitive Grammar</span></i>
Vol. I, </span></font><font color=maroon face=Gentium><span style='font-family:
Gentium;color:maroon'>1987:35-36, 41 </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=maroon face=Gentium><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Gentium;color:maroon'><br>
[**Footnote: With apologies to Sapir, we can say that not only do all grammars
leak, they also list (massively).]</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
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<p><font size=2 color=white face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=white face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:white'></span></font> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com<BR>
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1738 - Release Date: 10/21/2008 2:10 PM<BR>
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