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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Scott Nelson wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>“</span></font>The second meaning is
more general -- something like this: the uniqueness and characteristics of a
language.<font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Thanks, Scott. This was excellent. You
mentioned (above quote) a second meaning of idiom, but didn’t expand on
it (unless I missed it). Did you mean things like the difference between “I
have it,” and “It is with me”? Most languages expression
possession in one of these two ways—with a verb ‘have’ or
with a phrase ‘be with (smb)’. Is this the sort of idiom you were
referring to? –not exactly a ‘set phrase’ but a unique or at
least unpredictable wording.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>We run into this sort of thing in
translation. Sometimes a translation in the target language will be worded
exactly the same as the original sentence except for differences of word order
and grammar. You can match the words in the original and the words in the
translation almost on a one-to-one basis. Other times the translation has to be
“reworded” so that there is almost no word-for-word correspondence.
There may be no idioms (using your first definition) in either the original or
the translation, but the way the meaning is expressed is ‘idiomatic’
(unique) in the two.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Ron Moe<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>bolstar1<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 21, 2008
5:55 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Lexicog] Idiom of Mine</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Ron, Wayne, Scott C., David, et al: My best, and
simplified, reading <br>
of the definition(s) of `language idiom' (vs. 'artistic <br>
idiom') boil down to two main ones. The first, and I think the most <br>
common, is simply: a nonliteral phrase. This <br>
could be conisidered a synonym of 'metaphor' (meaning a nonliteral, <br>
figuratively used word) except that an idiom uses <br>
more than one word (i.e a set phrase). The second meaning is more <br>
general -- something like this: the uniqueness <br>
and characteristics of a language. <br>
As to what constitutes `nonliteral' is tricky, since to a native <br>
speaker, the common understanding of a nonliteral <br>
phrase renders it almost literal. For instantance, an example from <br>
the metaphorical category could be `fire.' The first <br>
time the word `fire' was used figuratively, it was indeed nonliteral <br>
(figurative)<wbr>, but what modern, native English speaker ever <br>
thinks of a flame when they hear someone say, "I got fired." <br>
I think of idioms (e.g. Get off my back!; You're barking up the <br>
wrong tree.), allusions (e.g. Bangalore is the <br>
Silicon Valley of India), proverbs (e.g. A penny saved is a penny <br>
earned), hyperbole (e.g. I told you a million times <br>
not to exaggerate.)<wbr>, (some) quotes (e.g. Never ask to know for whom <br>
the bell tolls, it tolls for thee), jargon phrases <br>
(e.g. What's the bottom line? (accounting)<wbr>, as all `idiomatic.' The <br>
use of the word in the adjective form here (idomatic)<br>
is in the nonliteral phrase category -- not the `characteristics of a <br>
language' category. It is rather easy to see the <br>
meaning of the term here.<br>
Additionally, there are deviations from a simple-listed form of <br>
an idiom, such as:<br>
bring off a deal <br>
close a deal <br>
conclude a deal<br>
cut a deal <br>
hammer out a deal <br>
ink a deal<br>
land a deal<br>
seal a deal<br>
strike a deal<br>
swing a deal <br>
<br>
So are there ten idioms here, or only one main idom -- with ten <br>
fairly interchangeable introductory verbs? <br>
So in terms of counting the number of idioms in the English <br>
language (or any language), it is on a sliding scale, <br>
and depends on the size of your dictionary, thesaurus, or glossary, <br>
and depends on your inclusion of those other <br>
rhetorical forms. I think I have catalogued about 25,000 -- 30,000 if <br>
you use that parameter. Probably about 15,000 -- <br>
20,000 using a more standard parameter. <br>
<br>
Hope this made sense, guys and gals.<br>
<br>
Scott Nelson<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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