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<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Oops..."litany," and as an afterthought to my explanation I didn't include any "allusions," which could go on forever acting "idiomatically," such as "Wayne Gretsky was the Babe Ruth of hockey."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Scott<BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 2/24/09, Scott Nelson <I><bolstar1@yahoo.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Scott Nelson <bolstar1@yahoo.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Lexicog] Re: Sports Sprachgefühling<BR>To: lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com<BR>Cc: bolstar1@yahoo.com<BR>Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 6:43 AM<BR><BR>
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<DIV>Good points, Richard. I could have added a lot of technical, professionally- used expressions to the </DIV>
<DIV>lists (165 baseball expressions alone), but I only focused on "athletic prowess" or high achievement<BR>within sports as illustrations of sprachgefuhl. <BR>I don't collect single-word terms, but even doing phrases is a real challenge, because of the <BR>number of sports there are. My db is basically for conversational & professional expressions, with <BR>sports as one of 63+ social & professional fields (and dozens of grammatical fields), so I couldn't <BR>come up with the entire littany of sports' vernacular. <BR>Anyway, hope to see more of your observations or work. I added a few soccer expressions as <BR>an example of the types of phrasal terminology I collect. </DIV>
<DIV>Scott Nelson</DIV>
<DIV></DIV></FONT> <SPAN lang=EN>
<DIV>a hat trick -- three goals by one person </DIV>
<DIV>(get) a yellow card -- get a warning by an offical </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>approach work -- controlling the play to the point of ball being near the</DIV>
<DIV>the opposition's goal</DIV>
<DIV><BR>break away (break loose) from the opposition -- (outmaneuver, get ahead of opposing <BR>players)<BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>(can) really put one's foot into it -- (can) kick the ball very far<BR></DIV>
<DIV>close (the opposition) down; close down (the opposition) -- to restrict the opposition <BR>from maneuvering<BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>fast side/slow side -- from the point of view of the goalkeeper, the fast side is the <BR>shortest required distance the ball has to travel from the player to the net; the slow <BR>side is the longest distance to the net<BR></DIV>
<DIV>(stay) in bounds; within bounds -- within the boundaries of the pitch <BR></DIV>
<DIV>(go) out of bounds -- outside the boundaries of the pitch <BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>on the carpet -- kicking the ball, rolling it on the pitch rather than flying it <BR>through the air</DIV></SPAN>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 2/23/09, Richard Rhodes <I><rrhodes@berkeley. edu></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Richard Rhodes <rrhodes@berkeley. edu><BR>Subject: [Lexicog] Re: Sports Sprachgefühling<BR>To: lexicographylist@ yahoogroups. com<BR>Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 10:11 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv1164058300>
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<DIV>Scott,</DIV>
<DIV> This is a nice list. And think you're categorizing it well. But at some point you need to divide it into true technical vocabulary used by the practitioners and the borrowings of those usages into or from the standard language. Take<I> touch</I>.</DIV>
<DIV> In soccer, for example,<I> touch</I> has two specialized senses:</DIV>
<DIV>1) The phrase<I> in(to) touch</I> means out of bounds along the sidelines (probably because the next play is to throw the ball in, i.e., you can legally touch it with your hands).</DIV>
<DIV>2)<I> Touch</I> is a special case of<I> pace</I>.<I> Pace</I> is the amount of force you put on the ball when you kick it. It applies especially to passes.<I> Touch</I> is the amount of<I> pace</I> that gets the ball to its intended location quickly enough w.r.t. the game situation, but without so much<I> pace</I> that an appropriately skilled player has to work to control the ball on receiving it. In this sense it often occurs in the phrase<I> with touch</I>. It's easy to see the affinity of this usage with the standard language usage in a phrase like<I> He has a light touch</I>, which I suspect is not a sports metaphor at all.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Also</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> <I>ball sense</I> is about reaction to the path of the ball</DIV>
<DIV> <I>ball skills</I> are about abilities to make the ball do things</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>They aren't synonyms at all. (It looks like you mean that the way you wrote your first example.)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Rich</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">Hi, people: Speaking of sports-related sprachgefühl, I thought I'd add my two sense.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">The following idioms/expressions are from my db of field-specific idioms. They represent some, but perhaps not all, of the possibilities of expressing sports superiority, and some are indeed not true idioms. I wrote before about the difficulty in classifying a particular idiom (non-literal) from a simpe expression or saying (literal). All that can be said is that idioms are a special type of expression/saying (a technical and immaterial difference to native-English speakers). The purpose here is to simply demonstrate the varieties of grammar and stylistics that American English speakers use to express `athletic prowess', with the current thread geared toward sprachgefühl, and athleticism/ sports being the field used to illustrate the concept.<BR>The change in prepositions, noun numbers, auxilliaries are examples of the difficulty of mastering (sprachgefühl) , English or, any language for that matter (e.g.<I> have an
instinct<U> for</U></I>...something;<I> play<U> by</U> instinct; play</I> golf<U><I> with</I></U> (or<I> by</I>)<I> his instinct<U>s</U> || quick<U> on</U> the draw</I>/<I>quickest<U> to</U> the draw/sometimes `quickest<U> on</U> the draw' || He<U> could</U> (<U>can</U> do something)<U> with one hand (arm)</U> tied behind his back.; He<U> could</U> (<U>can</U></I> do something<I>)<U> with both hands</U> tied behind his back.</I><BR><I></I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">I broke my list down into four categories:<BR><FONT size=+1><U><B><BR>SKILLS (based on experience)</B></U></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><U><B>Natural ABILITY (genetic)<BR>PERFORMANCE & ACHEIVEMENT (demonstrated)<BR>Instinctive Athletic MOTIVATION/DESIRE<BR>ENTERTAINMENT Value (Popularity- Based)<FONT size=+1><BR><BR>1) Skills (based on experience)</FONT></B></U><BR><U><B></B></U></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">(<I>have</I>) (good) ball<I> sense/skill</I><BR><BR><I>have</I> (<I>get/develop</I>)<I> a feel for</I> (something -- eg. kicking a soccer ball early in life.)</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He<I> has</I> kicking field goals (<I>it</I>/something)<I> down to a science</I>.<BR><BR><I>Look ma, No hands!</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR>He really<I> stays on the ball</I>.<BR><BR>He<I> plays</I> (<I>works/calculates</I>) (all)<I> the angles</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>Practice makes perfect.</I><BR><BR>His<I> eye is trained</I> (<I>for</I> something)<I> (to</I> do something).</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He<I> has a trained eye</I> (for something) (to do something).</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR><FONT size=+1><U><B>2) Natural ability (genetics)</B></U></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR>He's<I> athletically inclined</I>.<BR><BR>He's<I> a diamond in the rough</I>.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He<I> has a<U> nice</U> touch</I> (on the green/bunting/ at the net, etc.).</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">(he has) a<U><I> soft</I></U><I> touch</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">(he has)<I> a<U> light</U> touch</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">(he has)<I> a/the<U> golden touch</U></I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">(he has)<I> a (<U>good</U>) touch</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">(he has)<I> the<U> magic</U> touch</I><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He still<I> has his touch</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He still<I> has the (old) touch</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He's<I> not lost his touch</I>.<BR><BR>He's<I> light-handed</I>.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>He plays by instinct</I>.<BR>He<I> goes with his instinct</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He<I> plays by his instinct/instincts</I><BR><I></I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He<I> plays by his guts</I>.<BR><BR>He<I> has razor-sharp eyesight</I>.<BR><BR>He<I> has reflexes like a cat</I>. (<I>cat-like reflexes</I>)<BR><BR>It's his<I> strong suit</I>.<BR><BR><I>a born athlete<BR>born to be an athlete</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>a natural athlete</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>a born winner</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>He takes to sports.<BR>He takes to</I> swimming (tennis, etc.)<I> like a duck takes to water</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR>He's<I> quick on the draw</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He's<I> quickest to the draw</I>.<BR><BR>He's<I> the go-to guy (gal).</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>the go-to person</I><BR><BR><I>You can't beat a man at his own game.</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><FONT size=+1><U><B>3) Performance &Acheivement (demonstrated)</B></U></FONT><BR><FONT size=+1><U><B></B></U></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>(an) all-American</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>an all-star</I> (center/first baseman, etc.)</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He's<I> all-pro</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>an all-pro</I> football player (/basketball player, etc.)<BR><BR><I>No one can touch him.</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>You can't touch him.</I><BR><I></I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>He plays in a league of his own.</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>He's in his own league.<BR>He plays in a different league.</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">a (very)<I> hard act to follow</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>a tough act to follow</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>a difficult act to follow</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR><I>a heavy hitter</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>a long-ball hitter</I><BR><BR>He's<I> the odds-on favorite.</I><BR>He<I> won against all odds</I>.<BR><BR><BR>He<I> can run circles around</I> (someone).</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He's<I> a triple threat</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>at the peak of</I> (one's<I> game/performance</I>)</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>at/reach one's peak</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>He can do it</I> (do something)<I> blindfolded</I>.<BR><BR><I>It ain't braggin' if you kin do it.</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>have (win/maintain/ claim/retain) bragging rights</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>He knows how to get it (things) done.</I><BR><BR><I>He can (do something) standing on his head.</I><BR><BR>He<I> took top honors</I>.<BR><BR>Pro-bowlers are<I> the best of the best.</I><BR><BR>They<I> brought in the heavy hitters.<BR></I><BR><I>He could (do something) with one hand (arm) tied behind his back.<BR>He could (do something) with both hands tied behind his back.</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>with one arm tied behind one's back;</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>could do something with one hand tied behind one's back;</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He<I> could (can) (do something) with his eyes closed.</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He<I> can (do something) with the best of them.</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR><FONT size=+1><U><B>4) Instinctive Motivation/Desire</B></U></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>go/went for the jugular</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>have a taste for the jugular</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>have an instinct for the jugular</I><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He<I> has a killer instinct</I>.<BR><BR>He<I> plays with reckless abandon</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR><FONT size=+1><U><B>5) Entertainment Value</B></U></FONT><BR><BR>He's<I> larger than life</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR>He<I> can bring the crowd to its feet</I>.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He<I> draws a crowd</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">He<I> can (really) draw a crowd</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><I>know how to draw a crowd</I><BR>He's<I> a crowd pleaser</I>.<BR>He<I> pleases the crowd</I>.<BR>He<I> plays to the crowd</I>.<BR><BR>He<I> can silence a crowd with his play</I>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite">Hi, Rudy, et al.<BR>--- On<B> Mon, 2/23/09, rtroike@email. arizona.edu<I> <rtroike@email. arizona.edu></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>From: rtroike@email. arizona.edu <rtroike@email. arizona.edu><BR>Subject: [Lexicog] Re: Sprachgefühl<BR>To: lexicographylist@ yahoogroups. com<BR>Date: Monday, February 23, 2009, 1:15 PM<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Howdy, all,<BR><BR>My understanding of 'Sprachgefühl' (although it may have traditionally<BR>been applied philologically to puristic or artistic aspects) has always been<BR>that it is essentially what Chomsky originally had in mind in invoking<BR>'linguistic intuition' as the source of judgments of grammaticality,<BR>including such issues as whether 'bnick' or 'tlot' is a possible word of<BR>English. But as suggested in other posts, it can certainly extend to other<BR>areas of contextual, stylistic, gender (in the sociological sense), age, and<BR>regional appropriateness ('felicity', to use Austin's term).<BR><BR>Rudy<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite="" type="cite"> </BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><PRE>--
</PRE>
<DIV>************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* *********<BR> Richard A. Rhodes<BR> Department of Linguistics<BR> University of California<BR> Berkeley, CA 94720-2650<BR> Voice (510) 643-7325<BR> FAX (510) 643-5688<BR><BR> ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******<SPAN></SPAN>***</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
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