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Taanshi, Ron,<br><br>Although I do not think I am the one to necessarily do this, I think it would be fascinating to see how these emic categories would play out in our language Michif. I wonder if we would see French-origin categories, Cree origin categories, a mix of the two or even some that do not exist except in Michif! I wonder how the categories would play out when compared to Michif French and Ile a la Crosse Michif (a unique Metis dialect of Cree with some French borrowings.... It would be neat to identify both the similarities and differences in the ethnosemantics....<br>
<br>Eekoshi pitamaa.<br>Heather<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Ronald Moe <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ron_moe@sil.org">ron_moe@sil.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<p><font size="3" color="blue" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: blue;">I suspected, but didn’t know, that
Austronesian languages considered them as two different things. (We lived in a
coconut grove while studying Maguindanaon, an Austronesian language.) The
Austronesian languages would be particularly interested in these things due to
where they live (tropical Pacific islands). What is really interesting to me is
the reason you give—how people interact with them. Our “scientific”
classification of living things is based on form (e.g. A ‘tree’ has
a large woody trunk?). But Ken McElhanon suggested to me that our perception of
the physical world is determined primarily with how we interact with it. So the
question “Can we use it for wood?” is diagnostic on the basis of
our interaction. “I walked into the *<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">woods*</span></b>
to collect *<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">firewood</span></b>* and I cut
down a tree so I would have some *<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">wood</span></b>*
to build some *<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">wood</span></b>* furniture.”
These words/senses are connected morphologically as well as semantically. I
believe other languages use the same word for ‘tree’ and ‘wood/lumber’.
This is the kind of ethnosemantics that I want to research. What is the
underlying reason for grouping words into a domain? Similarly, what is the
underlying reason why words develop secondary meanings? I believe the two
questions are intimately related—that lexical relations, derivation,
secondary senses are all somewhat dependent on the kinds of semantic links the
mind typically forms between concepts. If we could get a better handle on the
basic building blocks of semantics and how they are joined together, we could
do a lot better job building really sophisticated dictionaries. We could also
do lexicography much more efficiently and with better insight.</span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" color="blue" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: blue;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" color="blue" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: blue;">Ron Moe</span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" color="blue" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: blue;"> </span></font></p>
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<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
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<p><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> <a href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Lou Hohulin<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, May 19, 2009 1:14
PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Lexicog] palm trees</span></font></p>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
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<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
<p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">You may know this, Ron, having worked on an
Austronesian language. In the two languages that I know, palms are not trees.
The reason given by native speakers is that palms cannot be used as wood, i.e.
firewood, or lumber. The word referring to trees may also refer to lumber. <br>
<br>
On Tue, 19 May 2009 12:12:26 -0700<br>
"Ronald Moe" <<a href="mailto:ron_moe%40sil.org" target="_blank">ron_moe@sil.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
>This fall I'm going to Uganda
for three and a half months to attempt(!) to<br>
>elicit the emic (emic = the way speakers view things) classification system<br>
>of the Ik language. It is remote and for various reasons there has not been<br>
>a lot of education in the area. So I am hoping it will be minimally<br>
>influenced by outside classification systems. One purpose of this research<br>
>is to see where the DDP domains do not fit another language. Eventually I<br>
>hope to get enough data to start making judgments on which domains are<br>
>universal (if any) and how languages vary. My thesis depends on the<br>
>assumption that there are semantic universals and universals of human<br>
>experience that influence how various languages conceptualize reality and<br>
>experience.<br>
><br>
> <br>
><br>
>For instance research into color terms reveals a wide variety of lexemes.<br>
>But when people are asked to point to a prototypical 'red' or 'blue', they<br>
>frequently point to the same square on a color chart. English has its<br>
>prototypical 'blood red' 'sky blue' and 'leaf green'. This holds true from<br>
>individual to individual and from language to language. If a language has<br>
>one lexeme that includes 'blue' and 'green' (what the researchers label<br>
>'grue'), people will point to two prototypical squares on the color chart,<br>
>one the prototypical blue and the other the prototypical green. Research<br>
>into the physics of the eye shows that this is actually determined by the<br>
>wavelengths of the light that the cones and rods in the eye can detect. So<br>
>there is a physiological basis for these lexical universals.<br>
><br>
> <br>
><br>
>One implication of this is that a standardized list of domains will be<br>
>partly applicable to any language. This is why DDP works well but not<br>
>perfectly. DDP is somewhat standardized, but in reality is basically an<br>
>English list. What we need is a truly standardized list and an indication
of<br>
>where languages vary. I liken the need to the role of IPA in phonological<br>
>study of particular languages. IPA gets us started, but we then have to do<br>
>research and analysis to determine how the phonology of our language works.<br>
><br>
> <br>
><br>
>Once I've done my research in the Ik language, I will want to describe the<br>
>process and results. I'm then hoping other people will do the same sort of<br>
>research so that we can compare numerous emic classification systems.<br>
><br>
> <br>
><br>
>Ron Moe<br>
><br>
> <br>
><br>
> _____ <br>
><br>
>From: <a href="mailto:lexicographylist%40yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
>[mailto:<a href="mailto:lexicographylist%40yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</a>]
On Behalf Of Wayne Leman<br>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:10 AM<br>
>To: <a href="mailto:lexicographylist%40yahoogroups.com" target="_blank">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
>Subject: [Lexicog] palm trees<br>
><br>
> <br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>Greg, if you are attempting to reflect the lexicon of a language, what is<br>
>the purpose of using a semantic taxonomy that does not reflect the lexical<br>
>relationships of that language?<br>
><br>
>It seems to me that using an "external" taxonomy to aid English
readers<br>
>creates a distorted view of the lexical relations within the language,
which<br>
>includes taxonomic relationships.<br>
><br>
>By the way, it is not necessary to have superordinate category<br>
>classification words in order for a people to have the concept of a
semantic<br>
>grouping, although it definitely helps. Not every concept that people have<br>
>is lexicalized, including in English.<br>
><br>
>Wayne<br>
>-----<br>
>Ninilchik Russian dictionary online:<br>
><a href="http://ninilchik." target="_blank">http://ninilchik.</a> <<a href="http://ninilchik.noadsfree.com" target="_blank">http://ninilchik.noadsfree.com</a>>
<a href="http://noadsfree.com" target="_blank">noadsfree.com</a><br>
><br>
>--------<br>
><br>
>Hi Ron,<br>
><br>
>I was not thinking of using a vernacular classification because the<br>
>vernacular I am studying actually seems to have few classification words of<br>
>levels that I can find. Also, I want my semantic domain list to reflect a<br>
>likely folk classification of English readers because it will mostly be<br>
>English readers who access the (English) sematic domain list. I know you do<br>
>not want an English folk classification. Sorry.<br>
><br>
><snip><br>
><br>
>Regards, Greg<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>
>Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.34/2122 - Release Date: 05/19/09<br>
>06:21:00<br>
><br>
></span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size="2" face="Arial">No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.34/2122 - Release Date: 05/19/09 06:21:00<br>
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