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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>Greg Mellow wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>“</span></font><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>there are at least
three possible ways of ordering the semantic domain list</span></font><font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'>”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>My goal in compiling the DDP list of
domains was your first option—to find those groupings that would most
likely be universal and average of ethno-classification systems. I was guided
in this by numerous lists of domains that had been developed for a variety of
languages. I also held two workshops for two Bantu languages in which I asked
them to organize 1000 words by domain. The words were written on cards and
shuffled so they would be in random order. The second workshop went a little
further and started collecting words in each of the domains the participants
had set up. When I analyzed the results of these workshops, I was startled to
find that almost all of their domains corresponded to my English domains. There
wasn’t enough time in the workshops to do nearly enough classifying or
collecting. The speakers of the two languages were almost all educated. So I
was left with the suspicion that (1) the speakers were influenced by their
education and (2) there was probably a lot that had been missed and would have
come out had we continued.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>The longer I have worked on DDP, the more I
have become convinced that my English bias was affecting the list to a greater
and greater degree. This effect is probably greater on the major categories and
the sub-sub-sub-categories. The middle categories are far more likely to be
universal. Anyway, this is why I want to do more research on a
non-Indo-European language whose speakers are unlikely to have been heavily
influenced by western education. I want to do enough detail work to learn the
basis for the domains the speakers set up. The goal is to “crawl inside
their minds” and view the world from their perspective.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>As Greg notes, each of the three possible
ways of ordering a list of semantic domains has its own benefits. Ideally we
would like to describe the emic domains of the vernacular language because that
is part of the lexicon. The mental lexicon is not an alphabetical listing of
lexemes. That is a convenience for the dictionary user. The mental lexicon is a
rich network that operates on many levels. Discovering the natural emic
groupings is just one task that we could pursue. However I believe it would
take a huge amount of work to develop an emic list of domains. But that is one
thing that I am hoping to find out. Can I develop a simple, easy method for
developing a list of emic domains? Right now the only easy option we have is to
use a standardized list of domains like DDP. And DDP is the only list that I am
aware of that is anywhere close to being exhaustive and detailed enough to
classify all the words of a language. DDP is a compilation of about 25
different lists of domains plus a lot that I added myself.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>So until I or someone else comes up with
something better, I recommend that you use DDP to collect words and then start
researching your emic domains to see where they are different from the DDP
domains. When you find a difference, modify the DDP list.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>Ron Moe<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Greg and Heather Mellow<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, May 20, 2009
12:58 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Lexicog] palm trees</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=ygrp-mlmsg>
<div style='float:left;z-index:1' id=ygrp-msg>
<div id=ygrp-text>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>
<!doctype HTML>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Hi
Wayne,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I am sorry if my reply seems inane, but one purpose of
a semantic taxonomy is to produce a list of words grouped by semantic
domain, to help find similar words. If the reader wants to explore the plant
names of a vernacular, it is useful to have the plant names grouped in a list,
and to have the list divided into various sub-groupings.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Having read the LDL today, it seems there are at least three
possible ways of ordering the semantic domain list. (1) There may be a
universal order, which would reflect a kind of average of individual
ethno-taxonomic systems. This has the advantage of being intuitive and easily
used by everyone. (2) You could use an English ethno-taxonomy, which has
the benefit of being intuitive and easily used by an English reader. (3) You
could use the ethno-taxonomy of the vernacular language, which has the
advantage of being a insightful window on the vernacular language and thought
system, but the disadvantage of possibly being obscure to an outsider. I was
wondering which of the three options the DDP taxonomy was aiming at, and
whether the DDP taxonomy needs to be tweaked for each language, or deliberately
kept unchanged.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I have just learned that in the Austronesian language I work
with, coconut palms, sago palms, pandanus trees and betelnut palms are all
not considered 'trees'. There is no superordinate term to refer to them, as you
rightly suggested might be the case.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Regards, Greg</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:wayne_leman@sil.org" title="wayne_leman@sil.org">Wayne Leman</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com"
title="lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Wednesday, May 20,
2009 2:09 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> [Lexicog] palm
trees<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=ygrp-text>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Greg, if you are attempting to reflect the lexicon of
a language, what is<br>
the purpose of using a semantic taxonomy that does not reflect the lexical<br>
relationships of that language?<br>
<br>
It seems to me that using an "external" taxonomy to aid English
readers<br>
creates a distorted view of the lexical relations within the language, which<br>
includes taxonomic relationships.<br>
<br>
By the way, it is not necessary to have superordinate category<br>
classification words in order for a people to have the concept of a semantic<br>
grouping, although it definitely helps. Not every concept that people have<br>
is lexicalized, including in English.<br>
<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wayne</st1:place></st1:City><br>
-----<br>
Ninilchik Russian dictionary online:<br>
<a href="http://ninilchik.noadsfree.com">http://ninilchik.<wbr>noadsfree.<wbr>com</a><br>
<br>
--------<br>
<br>
Hi Ron,<br>
<br>
I was not thinking of using a vernacular classification because the<br>
vernacular I am studying actually seems to have few classification words of<br>
levels that I can find. Also, I want my semantic domain list to reflect a<br>
likely folk classification of English readers because it will mostly be<br>
English readers who access the (English) sematic domain list. I know you do<br>
not want an English folk classification. Sorry.<br>
<br>
<snip><br>
<br>
Regards, Greg<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
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