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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>Let me just add that my hope is to develop
a method for eliciting words using the emic domains of a language that is more
efficient than DDP. DDP might be useful for cross-linguistic comparison, just
as transcribing words phonetically has usefulness when comparing sound systems.
But no one wants phonetic orthographies. If we had a lot of dictionaries that
were all classified using the DDP list of domains, we could compare the “same”
domain in all of the languages. However I believe we would learn a lot more
from comparing emic systems of semantic domains and networks of lexical
relations. So I’m not convinced that a standardized list of domains like
DDP is the best we can do. It may be the best we have right now, but surely we
can do better.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>Ron Moe<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b><st1:PersonName w:st="on">Wayne
Leman</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, May 20, 2009 8:04
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Lexicog] palm trees</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=ygrp-mlmsg>
<div style='float:left;z-index:1' id=ygrp-msg>
<div id=ygrp-text>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>
<!doctype HTML>
<font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Thanks,
Greg. I understand what you are saying about using your three different kinds
of semantic taxonomies for displaying lexical data and probably also as
heuristics (discovery procedures). I may be missing something, but I still do
not understand how we could call a display of the words of a language its
lexicon if that display was not organized according to the semantic domains of
that language and the cultural context and worldview of its speakers.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>I think that Ron's DDP approach is one of the most helpful workshop and
heuristic programs to come along. But it and no other semantic taxonomies
developed by outside researchers can ever really account for the indigenous
semantic categories. We have to discover those using methods which allow native
speakers, unbiased by outside educational systems, to try to express how they
divide up the lexical universe. Dick Watson's post is one good methodology for
getting at those emic semantic taxonomies.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>BTW, Ron recognizes, as he has stated in his most recent message and he
and I have had email exchanges on this point in the past, that the DDP program
is a good start. I'd stay it's far better than good. It represents a great deal
of careful thinking by someone who has done a lot of lexical work with speakers
in workshops in different parts of the world. It simply has the limitations
that any "external" program will have for displaying semantic domains
of any particular language.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Yes, there are semantic universals. I don't know how many universals
there are re: semantic taxonomies. It may be that there are universals, but
that we have to describe them using dependency relationships or something like
that, such as is done by some people working with language typologies today
(e.g. If a clause of a language has an Object, that Object will usually appear
in such-and-such a position relative to the Verb).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Ultimately, we need to do a lot more work on ethnosemantics based on
culturally-sensitiv<wbr>e cognitive science. After all, lexical relationships
presumably represent relationships among mental concepts of people who have
various worldviews and artifacts within their worlds.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>So, in summary, Greg, I understand what you are saying. I could even
accept, hmm, perhaps (!), the validity of some lexical data of some language
published for English speakers using semantic domains that English speakers
use. But the publication should make it very, very clear that those semantic
domains are only there as a helpful device for English speakers to access
information about semantic domains they are curious about. They need to
understand that if they consider a palm to be a tree and find a palm in the
tree category (even if the language does not have a generic word for tree),
that does not mean that the palm is a tree in the lexicon that they are viewing
in publication. My own preference would be to limit the misunderstanding that
can result from squeezing round and other shaped and colored objects into
square holes. I've seen this done terribly with "dictionaries"
published recently for a variety of language by a man (</span></font><span
class=ptbrand>Philip M. Parker; googling on his name is an interesting exercise
if one is interested in how not to do lexicography) </span><font size=2><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>who squeezed the words of every language (none of
which he knew and so there were many errors) into an English thesaurus
model. Several of us linguists have had to contact him and try to help him
understand how distorted and inaccurate his books are. And they have even been
demeaning to the native speakers of languages, as for instance, if he would
force a vernacular word for "weed" into the thesaurus category for
mind-altering substances. That very kind of thing happened for one Native
American language and those people were highly offended by their language was
misrepresented.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=2
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Wayne</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=ygrp-mlmsg>
<div id=ygrp-msg>
<div id=ygrp-text>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hi Wayne,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I am sorry if my reply seems inane, but one purpose of
a semantic taxonomy is to produce a list of words grouped by semantic
domain, to help find similar words. If the reader wants to explore the plant
names of a vernacular, it is useful to have the plant names grouped in a list,
and to have the list divided into various sub-groupings.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Having read the LDL today, it seems there are at least three
possible ways of ordering the semantic domain list. (1) There may be a
universal order, which would reflect a kind of average of individual
ethno-taxonomic systems. This has the advantage of being intuitive and easily
used by everyone. (2) You could use an English ethno-taxonomy, which has
the benefit of being intuitive and easily used by an English reader. (3) You
could use the ethno-taxonomy of the vernacular language, which has the
advantage of being a insightful window on the vernacular language and thought
system, but the disadvantage of possibly being obscure to an outsider. I was
wondering which of the three options the DDP taxonomy was aiming at, and
whether the DDP taxonomy needs to be tweaked for each language, or deliberately
kept unchanged.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I have just learned that in the Austronesian language I work
with, coconut palms, sago palms, pandanus trees and betelnut palms are all
not considered 'trees'. There is no superordinate term to refer to them, as you
rightly suggested might be the case.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Regards, Greg</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:wayne_leman@sil.org" title="wayne_leman@sil.org">Wayne Leman</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com"
title="lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Wednesday, May 20,
2009 2:09 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> [Lexicog] palm
trees<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div id=ygrp-text>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Greg, if you are attempting to reflect the lexicon of
a language, what is<br>
the purpose of using a semantic taxonomy that does not reflect the lexical<br>
relationships of that language?<br>
<br>
It seems to me that using an "external" taxonomy to aid English
readers<br>
creates a distorted view of the lexical relations within the language, which<br>
includes taxonomic relationships.<br>
<br>
By the way, it is not necessary to have superordinate category<br>
classification words in order for a people to have the concept of a semantic<br>
grouping, although it definitely helps. Not every concept that people have<br>
is lexicalized, including in English.<br>
<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wayne</st1:place></st1:City><br>
-----<br>
Ninilchik Russian dictionary online:<br>
<a href="http://ninilchik.noadsfree.com">http://ninilchik.<wbr>noadsfree.<wbr>com</a><br>
<br>
--------<br>
<br>
Hi Ron,<br>
<br>
I was not thinking of using a vernacular classification because the<br>
vernacular I am studying actually seems to have few classification words of<br>
levels that I can find. Also, I want my semantic domain list to reflect a<br>
likely folk classification of English readers because it will mostly be<br>
English readers who access the (English) sematic domain list. I know you do<br>
not want an English folk classification. Sorry.<br>
<br>
<snip><br>
<br>
Regards, Greg<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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