2nd language attrition - Shades of gray and other matters

[Stan-Sandy Anonby]

True, my comments were somewhat non sequeteur.

Stan

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 06:24:17 +0800
 hsmr at gol.com wrote:
> A public note to Stan:
>
> Perhaps if you could be clearer about the source of your quotations. You have responded to someone's remark above that is clearly different from the source of the one quoted below, but you have failed to provide the source of the remark above.
>
> Also, the topic is the loss of L2 -- not L1. Although this may not be clear from the title, surely it is clear from the discussion that followed.
>
> Thank you for your cooperation.
>
> In the spirit of interesting and productice discourse,
>
> Hamo
>
> R. A. Stegemann
> EARTH's Manager and HKLNA-Project Director
> EARTH - East Asian Research and Translation in Hong Kong
> http://homepage.mac.com/moogoonghwa/earth/
> Tel/Fax: 852 2630 0349
>
> On 25 Oct 2004, at 00:00, Stan-Sandy Anonby wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> >> From my perspective in Brazil, I think economics has much more to do
> >> with L1 loss than politics does. In this age of globalization, the
> >> people who speak the powerful languages best are generally more
> >> successful in becoming part of the world economy. The government
> >> policies here try their best to encourage the use of indigenous
> >> languages, but so far, the shft to Portuguese (and the desire to
> >> learn English) seems to be increasing.
> >
> > It is possible for individuals to retain two languages, but this
> > usually doesn't last more than a few decades. Most communities don't
> > feel it's worth their effort for everyone to speak both languages.
> >
> > Stan Anonby
> >
> > On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 21:17:41 +0800
> >  hsmr at gol.com wrote:
> >> Hi everyone!
> >>
> >> It appears that we have found another subject of some interest to
> >> other members of the mailing. So please allow me to pursue it
> >> further, but under a more appropriate heading  -- 2nd language
> >> attrition.
> >>
> >> As Kevin Rocap recently pointed out (04/10/14), bilingualism does
> >> make a difference with regard to how our brains are structured, and
> >> the earlier we learn a second language the greater is the impact of
> >> bilingualism on this structure. Exactly what the advantages of having
> >> denser gray matter are, I am not altogether sure. Under the
> >> assumption that those who have dedicated their lives to the study of
> >> our cranial neurology know what they are talking about; however,
> >> might we not conclude that bilingualism is a good thing? I am not so
> >> easily convinced, as what might be good for our brains, may not be
> >> good for society.
> >>
> >> I was happy to learn from Aurolyn that stable diglossic situations
> >> can and do exist for many generations, as it provides hope for a
> >> healthy balance between globalization and the preservation of local
> >> language and culture. I was also pleased to learn from Aurolyn that
> >> the edging out of L1 by L2 is primarily political in nature. This
> >> means that a political solution can be found, where indeed those who
> >> care enough about their language and culture wish to preserve it.
> >>
> >> David Balosa's personal experience with Portuguese, French, Lingala,
> >> Kikongo, and English also coincides very well with my own. I, too,
> >> have drawn lines between my several languages and have given each a
> >> "specific role in my cognitive universe". Then too, none of us has
> >> more than 24 hours in a day, and each of us must allot his time
> >> accordingly. As the the world becomes increasingly modern and ever
> >> more complex, the ramifications are twofold: one, how much time,
> >> energy, and money we can afford to devote to the learning of a second
> >> language on the one hand; and two how much of the same we can devote
> >> to nurturing the second languages that we have learned on the other.
> >> As language is something that must be nurtured, else it fall into
> >> disrepair, how we spend our time with each language is important.
> >> This is where 2nd language attrition becomes important.
> >>
> >> In her closing remarks to her last email Aurolyn wrote "Good luck
> >> trying to convince all those politically  &
> >> economically marginalized, aspiring L2 learners that they don't
> >> really need the L2 as much as they think
> >> they do!" Quite frankly, I do not believe this would be much of a
> >> problem, if only it can be shown that those, who create the
> >> artificial demand that drives these people to learn L2s, are making a
> >> very poor investment.
> >>
> >> Now, I have several questions:
> >>
> >> 1) David: When providing a reason as to why you chose to cultivate
> >> the French language, you wrote, "French is more beautiful than
> >> Portuguese and French people are more developed than Portuguese
> >> people".
> >>
> >> When I first began learning German and French as a second language, I
> >> believed that French was a more beautiful language than German. I
> >> know longer believe this. What I have discovered is that each
> >> language has its own intrinsic beauty and that this beauty grows with
> >> one's familiarity with the people and culture that serve as the basis
> >> for the literature and discourse that form the basis for a language's
> >> beauty. Furthermore, that you talk at all about the beauty of
> >> language suggests to me a certain fascination with language that not
> >> everyone has. Do you feel that your experience with language is
> >> representative of most DR Congolese?
> >>
> >> 2) Aurolyn: Certainly very good mastery of the English language can
> >> reap important benefits in East Asia, but knowing a little English in
> >> a society, where everyone is forced to learn English, greatly dilutes
> >> any benefit from knowing just a little. I would be very curious to
> >> learn what you meant when you wrote "my experience in Bolivia
> >> indicates that even a very limited mastery of the L2 ... can bring
> >> big benefits".
> >>
> >> Also, most of the literature that I have found dealing with L2
> >> attrition, is devoted to attrition within the L2 learning environment
> >> or migration. I am only aware of one individual who has done research
> >> of L2 attrition in a post-educational environment that does not
> >> include migration. His name is C. L. J. de Bot, and he studied
> >> post-secondary French-L2 attrition in either the Netherlands or
> >> Belgium.
> >>
> >> 3) Kevin: For what is worth Wellcome Supermarket and Park & Shop,
> >> Hong Kong's two principal grocery chains, control close to 80% of the
> >> Hong Kong retail food industry. Of all the places in the world, there
> >> are likely few that can top Hong Kong for the level of prestige that
> >> the English language plays in society. This, by the way, is not to
> >> say that the quality of what is written and spoken among the general
> >> public is very good. In any case, not having read beyond what you
> >> wrote I question the motivation behind the study. I wonder for
> >> example, what happens to the gray matter of bilingually trained
> >> people, who know longer use and develop their bilingual skills after
> >> they have acquired them. Also, I would like to know what happens to
> >> the gray matter of those who are compelled to learn languages against
> >> their will -- probably most of the world's population....
> >>
> >> Hamo
> >>
> >> R. A. Stegemann
> >> EARTH's Manager and HKLNA-Project Director
> >> EARTH - East Asian Research and Translation in Hong Kong
> >> http://homepage.mac.com/moogoonghwa/earth/
> >> Tel/Fax: 852 2630 0349
> >>
> >