<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">I agree with Christina Paulston that the
attitudes of the Ladin-speaking population in South Tyrol are crucial.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">A Ladin language use survey was published in
1995. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The study shows
that Ladin is possible and used in most daily situations in the family and the
community. Over 90% of respondents regarded themselves as Ladin. Local, i.e.,
Ladin forms of government are seen as having a positive orientation toward
Ladin; in contrast, the regional, i.e, provincial government is regarded as
being less interested in Ladin.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The
respondents’ attitudes <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">“demonstrate
the uncertainty about the extent to which a minority language that is highly
prestigious on a local level bears relevance outside of the area, that is
whether status corresponds to prestige. Yet there is an evident feeling that the
language should be extended in administrative use but the specific probe
concerning such a use in public service … does not emanate such a positive
response. The general orientation towards Ladin is positive few feeling that it
is under threat while feeling that it is an essential ingredient of being Ladin,
and that children should be socialised by reference to the language. In no way
is it seen as a marker of low social status. However there is a higher degree of
uncertainty when Ladin is related to modernity and
science.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The study is
available online at: <A
href="http://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/document/ladi/an/e1/e1.html"><FONT
color=#0000ff>http://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/document/ladi/an/e1/e1.html</FONT></A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Alkistis
Fleischer</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV>From: "Christina Paulston" <<A
href="mailto:paulston+@pitt.edu">paulston+@pitt.edu</A>></DIV>
<DIV>To: <<A
href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</A>>;
<<A
href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</A>></DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 7:57 PM</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: printability and standardization</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>> I wrote a long response to this spate of comments, apparently caused
by a <BR>> not very well put comment by me on labels not including
Ladin. And as I was<BR>> about to send it, I was cut off the net. No
patience to repeat my comments<BR>> but briefly:<BR>> 1
Anyone who has read Elizabethan literature knows print and<BR>>
standardization is not the same.<BR>> 2. I was not talking
about LCTL, oral traditions, etc but only about<BR>> Ladin.<BR>>
3. It has been the preference of the Ladin speaking
population not to<BR>> use written Ladin in their bilingual schooling because
of the many different<BR>> dialects and they did not want any friction. Who
are academics to tell them<BR>> what they should want?<BR>>
4. Before we condemn the policies, maybe one should ask the
Ladin<BR>> speaking population what they think?<BR>> 5.
The literature on bilingual education (eg Brown's dissertation on LA<BR>>
French-English) is full of examples of the negative effect on dialect<BR>>
attitudes by putting a written, standardized version of the dialect into
the<BR>> classroom (to normal people, not linguists) - that was my
intended<BR>> reference.<BR>> But I expect that no one contributing to
this discussion really knows what<BR>> the reaction is of the Ladin speaking
population itself. I respectfully<BR>> submit we should find out before we go
on any further. Christina Paulston<BR>> <BR>> ----------<BR>> >From:
Joshua Fishman <<A
href="mailto:joshuaafishman@yahoo.com">joshuaafishman@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>
>To: <A
href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</A><BR>>
>Subject: Re: printability and standardization<BR>> >Date: Wed, Jan 7,
2004, 3:09 PM<BR>> ><BR>> <BR>> > And of course, there is
standardization in<BR>> > non-literate (oral) cultures! JAF<BR>>
><BR>> > --- "Harold F. Schiffman"<BR>> > <<A
href="mailto:haroldfs@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">haroldfs@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</A>>
wrote:<BR>> >> Thank you, Joshua, for reminding us that<BR>>
>> standardization and print are separate issues.<BR>> > I have
tried to make that case for 'standard'<BR>> > Spoken Tamil, which doesn't
often appear in<BR>> > print, since literary Tamil (with extreme<BR>>
> diglossic differences) serves that purpose.<BR>> > People who work in
western linguistic traditions<BR>> > tend to think that print equals
standardization,<BR>> > and nothing else matters.<BR>> >>
Sanskrit developed a method of<BR>> >> controlling 'standard' without
resorting to<BR>> >> print, and other languages can<BR>> >> do
the same.<BR>> >><BR>> >> My article on this is
``Standardization and<BR>> >> Restandardization: the case of<BR>>
>> Spoken Tamil." Language in Society, Vol. 27 (3)<BR>> >>
359-385. (1998) and it's<BR>> >> also available on my website
at<BR>> >><BR>> > <A
href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/public/stantam/STANTAM.HTM">http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/public/stantam/STANTAM.HTM</A><BR>>
>><BR>> >> Hal Schiffman<BR>> >><BR>> >> On
Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Joshua Fishman wrote:<BR>> >><BR>> >> >
The discussion of (non-)Standardization of<BR>> >> Ladin<BR>>
>> > and the "reluctance" of the Italian<BR>> >> government
to<BR>> >> > utilize it in print should remind us that<BR>>
>> print<BR>> >> > and standardization are quite separate
and<BR>> >> > independent of each other. Many languages<BR>>
>> have<BR>> >> > been printed (and, of course, also
written)<BR>> >> far<BR>> >> > before their standardization
and, indeed,<BR>> >> their<BR>> >> > use in print
contributed greatly to their<BR>> >> > ultimate standardization
(viz. D-B Kerler<BR>> >> 2003).<BR>> >> > Of course,
standardization did not rescue<BR>> >> Latin,<BR>> >> >
Greek, Hebrew, etc. from disappearing as<BR>> >> > vernaculars. It
would be particularly<BR>> >> > "indelicate" for the Italian
government to<BR>> >> snub<BR>> >> > Ladin due to Ladin's
lack of full<BR>> >> > standardization, given the lack of
full<BR>> >> > standardization of Italian to this very day.<BR>>
>> > English too is far from being fully<BR>> >>
standardized,<BR>> >> > which should lead most of us to be
rather<BR>> >> less<BR>> >> > dismissive of Ladin for this
same very human<BR>> >> > "failing". All in all, "complete<BR>>
>> standardization"<BR>> >> > is a will-of-the-whisp and some
small<BR>> >> languages<BR>> >> > are far closer to this
goal (acting on the<BR>> >> > mistaken assumption that it will
promote<BR>> >> their<BR>> >> > acceptance) than much
larger ones who<BR>> >> couldn't<BR>> >> > care less.
Joshua A. Fishman<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> ><BR>> >>
> =====<BR>> >> ><BR>> >><BR>> >
____________________________________________________________<BR>> >>
> HOME: 3616 Henry Hudson Pkwy., Apt. 7B-N,<BR>> >> Bronx NY
10463<BR>> >> > home tel: 718-796-8484; home fax:<BR>> >>
718-796-8155 (3 page limit); OFFICE tel:<BR>> >> 718-430-3850; office
fax: 719-430-3060.<BR>> >> ><BR>> >> >
__________________________________<BR>> >> > Do you Yahoo!?<BR>>
>> > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"<BR>> >>
Sweepstakes<BR>> >> ><BR>> >><BR>> > <A
href="http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus">http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus</A><BR>>
>> ><BR>> >><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >
=====<BR>> >
____________________________________________________________<BR>> > HOME:
3616 Henry Hudson Pkwy., Apt. 7B-N, Bronx NY 10463<BR>> > home tel:
718-796-8484; home fax: 718-796-8155 (3 page limit); OFFICE tel:<BR>> >
718-430-3850; office fax: 719-430-3060.<BR>> ><BR>> >
__________________________________<BR>> > Do you Yahoo!?<BR>> >
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes<BR>> > <A
href="http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus">http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus</A><BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>> > <BR>>
<BR>></FONT> </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>