<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Well, yes, I understood the background to the discussion, and your counterexamples are always so good and helpful to us, but the trouble with analogy is that you have to identify all the variables before you know it's an analogy. Enough said, Christina<br><div><div>On Feb 17, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Stan & Sandy Anonby wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Hi Christina,</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">You're welcome.</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">OK, you're right in making a distinction.</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">1) Earlier in the conversation, we were talking about two dueling languages, of more or less equal status duking it out. In that case, the one with higher status would last longer.</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">2) My examples were of two very low status languages against one huge language. I</font><font face="Arial" size="2">n my case, the ramifications of status are different. Right?</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Take care,</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Stan</font></div><blockquote dir="ltr" style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; margin-right: 0px; "><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; ">----- Original Message -----</div><div style="background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; background-position: initial initial; "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="paulston+@pitt.edu" href="mailto:paulston+@pitt.edu">Christina Paulston</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu" href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, February 14, 2008 5:50 PM</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: 'Status' drives extinction of languages</div><div><br></div>Stan,<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "> </span> <div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "></span>Thank you for the article, all printed out already,</div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; "></span>Here I think youneed to be concerned about whose status relative to whom. Both your tribes have lower social status than the speakers of the main language, Portuguese and you see evidence of that exactly with your Surui. Then you have to look for other reasons they have become bilingual faster than the other tribe: belief systems, geographical distance, motivation in the form of jobs, etc. Let's not forget that lge shift is multi-causal after all. Christina</div><div><div><div>On Feb 14, 2008, at 2:39 PM, Stan & Sandy Anonby wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="word-spacing: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; text-transform: none; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-indent: 0px; white-space: normal; letter-spacing: normal; border-collapse: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font face="Arial" size="2">I can think of examples where the higher status tribes assimmilate much more quickly than the lower status tribes. I'm talking here about status in their own eyes as well as in the eyes of outsiders. I'll give you one example.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font><font face="Arial" size="2">In Brazil, there are two tribes living more or less in the same area. The Surui are more outgoing and have think more highly of themselves than the Nambiquara. The Nambiquara have had contact with outsiders since the 1930's, while the Surui were contacted in the early 1970's. The Surui are much smaller numerically. Yet they are more bilingual than the Nambiquara.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font><font face="Arial" size="2">In fact, in Brazil and in Canada, (the two places I've worked) it seems to me that it is almost always the case that the lower status families, individuals, and tribes tend to retain their language longest.</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div><font face="Arial" size="2">Stan</font></div><div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div><div>---- Original Message -----</div><blockquote dir="ltr" style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; margin-right: 0px; "><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="krutel@mville.edu" href="mailto:krutel@mville.edu">Laurence D. Krute</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu" href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu" href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:16 PM</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: 'Status' drives extinction of languages</div><div><br></div>The process of community language shift are much more complex than the brief version of the article seems to indicate.<br><br>Felecia's astute comment can be generalized; 'status' and other attitudinal factors matter a great deal, but status *according to whom* matters a great deal more, but perceived functionality, among many other factors, matters far more that that.<br><br>Piaroa (Amazonas Territory, Venezuela, linguistic genetic isolate basically, possibly 13,000) strongly feel that their society, customs, and language are quite uniquely wonderful, special, and correct. However, Piaroa are no more monolingual in Piaroa or even more bilingual in Piaroa and Spanish (as opposed to monolingual Spanish) than are surrounding indigenous groups, in the face of the equally strong beliefs to the contrary (that the language, customs, and people are bascially subhuman) by those whose views matter--local Spanish-speakers....(That is, Piaroa speakers are still giving up Piaroa.)<br><br>Larry<br><br><p><br>Dr. Laurence Krute<br>Associate Dean--Graduate Advising<br>School of Education<br>Manhattanville College<br>2900 Purchase Street Purchase, NY 10577<br>voice:914 323-5366<br>fax:914 323-5493<br></p><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: "Felecia Briscoe" <<a href="mailto:Felecia.Briscoe@utsa.edu">Felecia.Briscoe@utsa.edu</a>><br>Sent 2/14/2008 12:03:47 PM<br>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</a>,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</a><br>Subject: RE: 'Status' drives extinction of languages<br><br><p><font size="2">Doesn't status really mean the language spoken by the group that controls the most resources?<br><br>Felecia<br><br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:owner-lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">owner-lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>on behalf of Stan & Sandy Anonby<br>Sent: Thu 2/14/2008 11:54 AM<br>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</a><br>Subject: Re: 'Status' drives extinction of languages<br><br>Interesting. Sounds like it's broadly researched. I've got a couple of<br>comments.<br><br>1) I wonder how widely the status argument can be applied. For instance, the<br>article says the researchers point out that bilingual societies do exist:<br>"But the histories of countries where two languages co-exist today generally<br>involve split populations that lived without significant interaction,<br>effectively in separate, monolingual societies. Only recently have these<br>communities begun to mix, allowing language competition to begin."<br><br>Maybe the populations lived without significant interaction because the<br>status difference was so great. Maybe mixing happened recently only because<br>the lower status language began to gain prestige.<br><br>2) I believe that the increased status of French in Quebec may have helped<br>in creating a larger percentage of speakers there. However, I think larger<br>factors included the flight of English speakers and large immigration from<br>Francophone countries.<br><br>Stan Anonby<br><br><br><br>----- Original Message -----<br>From: "Harold Schiffman" <<a href="mailto:hfsclpp@gmail.com">hfsclpp@gmail.com</a>><br>To: "lp" <<a href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list@ccat.sas.upenn.edu</a>><br>Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:27 AM<br>Subject: 'Status' drives extinction of languages<br><br><br>> 'Status' drives extinction of languages<br>> Bob Beale<br>> ABC Science Online<br>><br>> Thursday, 21 August 2003<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> A language's status in society is the best way to predict if it is<br>> headed for extinction Languages evolve and compete with each other<br>> much like plants and animals, but those driven to extinction are<br>> almost always tongues with a low social status, U.S. research shows.<br>> The social status of a language is the most accurate way of predicting<br>> whether it will survive, argue researchers in a paper appearing today<br>> in the journal, Nature . They also suggest that active intervention to<br>> boost the status of rare and endangered languages can save them.<br>> "Thousands of the world's languages are vanishing at an alarming rate,<br>> with 90% of them being expected to disappear with the current<br>> generation," warned Dr Daniel Abrams and Professor Steven Strogatz,<br>> both of Cornell University in New York.<br>><br>> The pair have developed a simple mathematical model of language<br>> competition to explain how dialects such as Welsh, Scottish Gaelic and<br>> Quechua - the most common surviving indigenous language in the<br>> Americas - have lost out to more dominant tongues.<br>> The model is based on data they collected on the number of speakers of<br>> endangered languages - in 42 regions of Peru, Scotland, Wales,<br>> Bolivia, Ireland and Alsaçe-Lorraine - over time. All have been in<br>> steep decline over the past century or so, and the model suggests that<br>> Scottish Gaelic and Quechua will be close to extinct by about 2030.<br>><br>> Previous models of language dynamics have focused on the transmission<br>> and evolution of syntax, grammar or other structural properties of a<br>> language itself. Yet by comparing various influences that help to<br>> explain the steadily declining numbers of speakers of each language,<br>> Abrams and Strogatz singled out status as the single most significant<br>> factor that could predict its extinction threat.<br>><br>> "Quechua, for example, still has many speakers in Huanuco, Peru," they<br>> note. "But its low status is driving a rapid shift to Spanish, which<br>> leads to an unfortunate situation in which a child cannot communicate<br>> with his or her grandparents." A language's fate generally depends on<br>> both its number of speakers and its perceived status, the latter<br>> usually reflecting the social or economic opportunities afforded to<br>> its speakers, they said. When two languages are in competition, the<br>> one that offers the greatest opportunities to its speakers will<br>> usually prevail.<br>><br>> The researchers point out that bilingual societies do exist: "But the<br>> histories of countries where two languages co-exist today generally<br>> involve split populations that lived without significant interaction,<br>> effectively in separate, monolingual societies. Only recently have<br>> these communities begun to mix, allowing language competition to<br>> begin." They urged active intervention to slow the global rate of<br>> language decline, pointing out that their model also predicts that<br>> higher status will keep a language alive. They also cite a real-life<br>> instance where this has happened: "The example of Québec French<br>> demonstrates that language decline can be slowed by strategies such as<br>> policy-making, education and advertising, in essence increasing an<br>> endangered language's status."<br>> Similar measures may make a difference elsewhere, they argued.<br>><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.clipclip.org/Bevsiem/clips/detail/66166">http://www.clipclip.org/Bevsiem/clips/detail/66166</a><br>><br>> --<br>> **************************************<br>> N.b.: Listing on the lgpolicy-list is merely intended as a service to<br>> its members<br>> and implies neither approval, confirmation nor agreement by the owner<br>> or sponsor of<br>> the list as to the veracity of a message's contents. Members who<br>> disagree with a<br>> message are encouraged to post a rebuttal. (H. Schiffman, Moderator)<br>> *******************************************<br>><br><br><br></font></p></blockquote></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></blockquote></div><br></body></html>