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Some other interesting refs on the tensions of between existing
‘authentic’ native speakers and new second-language learners:<br>
<br>
Lyster, R. 1987. Speaking immersion. Canadian Modern Language Review
43(4): 701–717.<br>
<br>
Robert, E. 2009. Accommodating ‘‘new’’ speakers? An attitudinal
investigation of L2 speakers of Welsh in south-east Wales.
International Journal of the Sociology of Language 195: 93–116.<br>
<br>
I think there's a fairly weighty sociolinguistic literature on
'authenticity' more generally.<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
--<br>
Dr. Dave Sayers<br>
Honorary Research Fellow<br>
School of the Environment and Society<br>
Swansea University<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:d.sayers@swansea.ac.uk">d.sayers@swansea.ac.uk</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://swansea.academia.edu/DaveSayers">http://swansea.academia.edu/DaveSayers</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 19:59, Julia deBres wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:%3C213442.83368.qm@web53901.mail.re2.yahoo.com%3E"
type="cite">
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<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Re:
'Pakeha (non-Maori) speaks Maori: how wonderful', I see your point but
this would only be the attitude among a very small proportion of New
Zealanders, because:<br>
<br>
a) some Maori don't appreciate Pakeha speaking Maori (bad experiences
in the past, suspicion about motivations, feeling that Pakeha are
trying to take over the language like they took over the land,
discomfort about Pakeha being able to speak Maori when most Maori
cannot, etc). <br>
<br>
b) many (perhaps most) Pakeha not only wouldn't view it as a
'wonderful' thing than Pakeha could speak Maori, because they see the
language as 'useless', 'dying', 'only spoken by 0.00000001% of the
world's population', etc, but would actually dislike it - because
perceptions of the language being valued by other Pakeha would seem to
signify some kind of a power shift in the status of this previously
(and still) oppressed language, in comparison to English. It's like
the English Only movement in the USA - members of powerful groups often
feel threatened by minority languages even when those languages pose no
objective threat at all. Resistance is a big part of the picture.<br>
<div><br>
So the only ones who would actually think it 'wonderful' for a Pakeha
person to speak Maori are a small proportion of non-Maori New
Zealanders with positive attitudes towards the Maori language, and a
certain proportion of Maori New Zealanders who think of the language as
something that should be available to all. For these people, sure,
'wonderful', for the rest the very opposite. <br>
<br>
Maybe this is particularly the case with national indigenous languages
that have been caught up in power struggles with colonial majority
languages for centuries - I expect more New Zealanders would find it
cool for a New Zealander to be able to speak Bengali for example.<br>
<br>
But I think this is a general phenomenon regarding the attitudes of
majority language speakers towards minority languages, and it is more
or less what I wrote my PhD about:<br>
<br>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/handle/10063/687">http://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/handle/10063/687</a>
</span><br>
<br>
Julia<br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
Anthea Fraser Gupta <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:A.F.Gupta@leeds.ac.uk"><A.F.Gupta@leeds.ac.uk></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Language Policy
List <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@groups.sas.upenn.edu"><lgpolicy-list@groups.sas.upenn.edu></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sat, 19 June,
2010 12:06:18 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [lg
policy] Canada: Employees lose Via Rail language policy challenge<br>
</font><br>
Yes to both Julia and Stan. Most people learn languages because they
need them, and therefore the languages of the powerful are more likely
to be learned. Where multiple languages are needed, they get acquired.<br>
<br>
But I don't agree that members of powerful groups lose power by
speaking another language. On the contrary...<br>
<br>
As a general rule, if a member of a lower prestige group (say, a group
associated with recent migration to a place, or an 'indigenous
minority') speaks the boss language that's routine, but if a boss
person speaks the lower group's language, that's praiseworthy. Compare,
for example:<br>
<br>
British Bengali speaks Bengali and English ("well, obviously")<br>
White English person speaks Bengali and English ("wonderful -- how
clever")<br>
<br>
Maori speaks Maori and English ("well, obviously -- nice that they've
kept their ancestral language")<br>
Pakeha speaks Maori and English ("wonderful!").<br>
<br>
Just supply your own examples.....<br>
<br>
Anthea<br>
<br>
* * * * *<br>
Anthea Fraser Gupta (Dr)<br>
School of English, University of Leeds, LS2 9JT<br>
<span><<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://www.leeds.ac.uk/english/staff/afg">www.leeds.ac.uk/english/staff/afg</a><</span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.leeds.ac.uk/english/staff/afg"
target="_blank">http://www.leeds.ac.uk/english/staff/afg</a>>><br>
* * * * *<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:lgpolicy-list-bounces@groups.sas.upenn.edu"
href="mailto:lgpolicy-list-bounces@groups.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list-bounces@groups.sas.upenn.edu</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:lgpolicy-list-bounces@groups.sas.upenn.edu"
href="mailto:lgpolicy-list-bounces@groups.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list-bounces@groups.sas.upenn.edu</a>]
On Behalf Of Julia deBres [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:juliadebres@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:juliadebres@yahoo.com">juliadebres@yahoo.com</a>]<br>
Sent: 16 June 2010 06:58<br>
To: Language Policy List<br>
Subject: Re: [lg policy] Canada: Employees lose Via Rail language
policy challenge<br>
<br>
Isn't it just that members of powerful groups are less likely to
accommodate linguistically to members of less powerful groups?<br>
<br>
I'm not saying Francophones are powerless, but whatever the status of
French in Quebec, French speakers are up against the huge national and
international prestige of English, which gives them a reason to
accommodate and English speakers a reason not to try to accommodate.<br>
<br>
It seems the same everwhere:<br>
<br>
On the national level, Maori New Zealanders are more likely to speak
English than other New Zealanders are likely to speak Maori<br>
On the international level, (I understand) Polish people are more
likely to speak German than Germans are to speak Polish<br>
<br>
<Less powerful group> is more likely to speak <powerful
language> than <powerful group> is likely to speak <less
powerful language><br>
<br>
And it's not just that the English speakers have less of an incentive
to accommodate, it's also that they are likely to experience resistance
to doing it - because part of being in the powerful group is working to
retain that advantage and accepting a need to learn French would feel
like letting a little part of that power go.<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Stan-sandy Anonby <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:stan-sandy_anonby@sil.org"
href="mailto:stan-sandy_anonby@sil.org">stan-sandy_anonby@sil.org</a>><br>
To: Language Policy List <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:lgpolicy-list@groups.sas.upenn.edu"
href="mailto:lgpolicy-list@groups.sas.upenn.edu">lgpolicy-list@groups.sas.upenn.edu</a>>;
Dave Sayers <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:dave.sayers@cantab.net"
href="mailto:dave.sayers@cantab.net">dave.sayers@cantab.net</a>><br>
Sent: Wed, 16 June, 2010 1:01:20 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [lg policy] Canada: Employees lose Via Rail language
policy challenge<br>
<br>
Good points, Dave,<br>
<br>
You're right. Language learning is difficult. Few people like language
learning.<br>
<br>
Just that the French people, despite their anti-English laws, are far
more bilingual than the anglophones. It's just as difficult for them to
learn English as it is for us to learn French. And Quebec's laws make
it very hard for them to go to English immersion schools. In English
Canada, French immersion schools are free and ubiquitous. Yet Quebecois
often learn English, and we very seldom speak French.<br>
<br>
Stan<br>
<br>
On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 14:57:31 +0100<br>
Dave Sayers <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:dave.sayers@cantab.net"
href="mailto:dave.sayers@cantab.net">dave.sayers@cantab.net</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" ymailto="mailto:dave.sayers@cantab.net"
href="mailto:dave.sayers@cantab.net">dave.sayers@cantab.net</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>Tricky one this, and echoes many similar cases around the world. My
main<br>
>problem (from a purely academic point of view!) is the assumption
that<br>
>language learning is easy enough to do - and, more to the point,
equally<br>
>easy for everyone. I'm not just talking about the 'critical period'
of<br>
>language acquisition, but that some people are cognitively not as
well<br>
>equipped for learning second languages, either due to specific
learning<br>
>difficulties (which often go undiagnosed, e.g. dyslexia) or just
through<br>
>regular variation in the ability to learn languages, not to mention<br>
>confidence in performing your newly acquired language.<br>
><br>
>There's also a class issue of sorts here. Even if employees are<br>
>supported in learning French (or whatever other language in other<br>
>cases), I'm fairly sure there would be homework. Would that be
easier or<br>
>harder in a poor household, where there might be all sorts of other<br>
>pressures? What about people who have responsibilities outside their<br>
>working hours, like unpaid care? These kinds of details can be
glossed over.<br>
><br>
>Just to be clear, I'm not arguing on either side of this argument.
As I<br>
>understand it there are a good deal of monolingual francophones in<br>
>Canada, which does create a more convincing case for requiring
French<br>
>language proficiency in certain jobs (unlike other cases where that<br>
>rationale is missing, e.g. Wales). Still, I'd stick my neck out and<br>
>suggest it's not always about disinterest or distaste towards
language<br>
>learning (though no doubt that's can be a factor).<br>
><br>
>Dave<br>
><br>
><br>
>--<br>
>Dr. Dave Sayers<br>
>Honorary Research Fellow<br>
>School of the Environment and Society<br>
>Swansea University<br>
><a moz-do-not-send="true" ymailto="mailto:d.sayers@swansea.ac.uk"
href="mailto:d.sayers@swansea.ac.uk">d.sayers@swansea.ac.uk</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" ymailto="mailto:d.sayers@swansea.ac.uk"
href="mailto:d.sayers@swansea.ac.uk">d.sayers@swansea.ac.uk</a>><br>
><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://swansea.academia.edu/DaveSayers" target="_blank">http://swansea.academia.edu/DaveSayers</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>On -10/01/37 20:59, wrote:<br>
>> <pre wrap><br>
>> I'm Canadian. But on an emotional level, I just don't
understand why<br>
>> my fellow anglos fight so hard not to speak French. I'm sure
Via gives<br>
>> its employees all sorts of opportunity to learn the language.
Why<br>
>> isn't this viewed as a boon, a privilege?<br>
>><br>
>> I guess it's for two reasons:<br>
>> 1) Most people dislike learning languages that they really
don't need<br>
>> to use.<br>
>> 2) Most people are only motivated to learn languages higher up
the<br>
>> prestige ladder.<br>
>><br>
>> Stan Anonby<br>
>><br>
>> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:18:31 -0400<br>
>> Harold Schiffman <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:hfsclpp@gmail.com" href="mailto:hfsclpp@gmail.com">hfsclpp@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" ymailto="mailto:hfsclpp@gmail.com"
href="mailto:hfsclpp@gmail.com">hfsclpp@gmail.com</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>> </pre><blockquote type=cite><pre wrap><br>
>> Employees lose Via Rail language policy challenge<br>
>><br>
>> James Kosowan/Canwest News Service<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Wednesday, Sept. 9, 2009<br>
>><br>
>> OTTAWA -- Five Via Rail employees have lost a court battle
claiming<br>
>> they should not have to speak French to work on routes in
Western<br>
>> Canada because there are already enough bilingual employees to
pick up<br>
>> the slack. Federal Court Justice Luc Martineau dismissed the
veteran<br>
>> employees’ quest for financial compensation for the wages they
say<br>
>> they lost because they were denied the most senior service
jobs. The<br>
>> unilingual employees, who have all worked at Via for 24 years
or more,<br>
>> are based in Winnipeg and Vancouver.<br>
>><br>
>> The workers unsuccessfully challenged Via’s requirement for<br>
>> bilingualism for onboard service staff on the Western
Transcontinental<br>
>> route between Toronto and Vancouver, which mainly serves
Canadian and<br>
>> foreign tourists. “Via is an important instrument of
government policy<br>
>> in transportation, employment and promotion of linguistic
duality and<br>
>> bilingualism in Canada,” wrote Justice Martineau. A francophone<br>
>> travelling in Western Canada should have the same entitlement
to<br>
>> service and emergency instructions in French, just as a
unilingual<br>
>> anglophone travelling in Quebec would expect service in
English,<br>
>> Justice Martineau said.<br>
>><br>
>> The rulings were released Wednesday, less than one month after
the<br>
>> railway came under fire following complaints emergency
evacuation<br>
>> instructions had only been given in English, angering some
francophone<br>
>> passengers travelling from Toronto to Ottawa. Via, a federal
Crown<br>
>> corporation, adopted the bilingualism requirement for new
employees in<br>
>> 1986 and the staffers say they have missed out on promotions
and some<br>
>> were not given French language training to achieve bilingual
status.<br>
>> They also argued that 75% of employees on the Western
Transcontinental<br>
>> are bilingual, which ensures services can be provided in both
official<br>
>> languages without affecting the futures of the unilingual
workers. The<br>
>> judge noted that Via disputes the number.<br>
>><br>
>> The employees were seeking, among other things, monetary
compensation<br>
>> for lost wages and pension benefits and damages for what some<br>
>> described as “humiliation and embarrassment.” The judge
handed down<br>
>> five separate rulings, but he noted they affected dozens of
other<br>
>> complainants. The five employees who challenged Via’s language
policy<br>
>> in court were Mark Collins, Brian Norton, Margaret Temple, and
Wendy<br>
>> Seesahai, who are all based in Winnipeg, and Brenda Bonner,
who lives<br>
>> in Vancouver. They were seeking varying amounts in
compensation and<br>
>> other damages. The highest claim came from Seesahai, who wanted<br>
>> $150,000.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Employees+lose+Rail+language+policy+challenge/1976879/story.html#ixzz0qkaxeR94"
target="_blank">http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Employees+lose+Rail+language+policy+challenge/1976879/story.html#ixzz0qkaxeR94</a><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
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