zero-marked true partitives

[Paolo Ramat]

Just a marginal note:
I agree with Frans: The 'pseudo-partitive construction' is in fact a 
classifier construction.
you can't buy in the greengrocer shop "Einen Salat", but just "Einen Kopf 
Salat", oder "Einen Kopfsalat", while in a restaurant you have to specify 
what  kind of salad you want: "Kartoffelsalat, Oelsalat...." , and even 
"Fleisch-" or "Fischsalat".
The 'true partitive' would be "Bitte geben Sie mir zwei Koepfe von diesem 
Salat".

Ciao!
Paolo

---------------------------
prof.Paolo Ramat
Università di Pavia
Dipartimento di Linguistica Teorica e Applicata
tel. ##39 0382 984 484
fax ##39 0382 984 487


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frans Plank" <Frans.Plank at UNI-KONSTANZ.DE>
To: <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 9:39 AM
Subject: Fwd: Re: zero-marked true partitives


> same goes for German:
>
> PSEUDO: fuenf Kilo/*Kilos Kartoffel
> REAL: fuenf Kilo/Kilos von den Kartoffeln
>
> Note the obligatory inflectional inertness of the quantifying-unit word in 
> the first construction -- which suggests (to me) that the 
> "pseudo-partitive" construction is a classifier construction. Perhaps 
> David has kept the correspondence some of us once had on this.
>
> I've not checked, but I do believe German grammars mention this sort of 
> thing.
>
> Frans
>
>
>>
>>Date:         Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:16:54 +0100
>>Reply-To: Nigel Vincent <nigel.vincent at MANCHESTER.AC.UK>
>>Sender: Discussion List for ALT <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>>From: Nigel Vincent <nigel.vincent at MANCHESTER.AC.UK>
>>Subject: Re: zero-marked true partitives
>>Comments: To: Michael Noonan <noonan at CSD.UWM.EDU>
>>To: LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>>
>>How about Danish:
>>fem kilo kartofler 'five kilos of potatoes'
>>but
>>fem kilo af de kartofler 'five kilos of those potatoes'
>>(Examples courtesy of my native speaking wife and daughter but see Robin 
>>Allan,
>>Philip Holmes & Tom Lundskaer-Nielsen 'Danish. A Comprehensive Grammar',
>>London, Routledge, 1995, para 732 (e) for recognition of the different 
>>types of
>>partitive.)
>>In fact in my experience, partitives in pedagogically oriented reference
>>grammars aimed at an English speaking readership such as the above get 
>>quite a
>>lot of space - see also for example Martin Maiden & Cecilia Robustelli 'A
>>reference grammar of modern Italian', London, Edward Arnold, 2000, pp. 
>>76-9. I
>>suspect this is because of the fairly subtle differences in constructions 
>>with
>>and without the use of the preposition corresponding to 'of' in what is a
>>pretty common type of expression and one where Anglophone learners tend to 
>>make
>>mistakes. In other words, the tendency Mickey notes is probably 
>>characteristic
>>of grammars of a certain kind and not by any means of all grammars.
>>Nigel
>>
>>Quoting Michael Noonan <noonan at csd.uwm.edu>:
>>
>>>A few years ago, Masha Koptjevskaja-Tamm made a useful distinction 
>>>between
>>>'pseudo-partitives' and 'true partitives'.
>>>
>>>PSEUDO-PARTITIVE
>>>a kilo of tea
>>>
>>>TRUE PARTITIVE
>>>a kilo of that tea
>>>
>>>Pseudo-partitives are units of measure, but true partitives are parts of
>>>things.  Some languages, like English, deal with the two sorts of
>>>partitives the same way; some languages have different means of 
>>>expressing
>>>the two relationships.
>>>
>>>My question concerns languages that have zero-marked pseudo-partitives, 
>>>as
>>>in Chantyal:
>>>
>>>dwita kilo cHa
>>>two   kilo tea
>>>'two kilos of tea'
>>>
>>>Zero-marked pseudo-partitives involve simple juxtaposition of the measure
>>>noun and the partitive NP.  In my limited sample, languages that have
>>>zero-marked pseudo-partitives lack a true partitive, expressing the idea
>>>clausally rather than within a noun phrase.  So, instead of a 
>>>construction
>>>like
>>>
>>> I want two kilos of that tea.
>>>
>>>one would say something like:
>>>
>>> That tea [topic], I want two kilos.
>>>
>>>Does anyone have any counterexamples; that is, does anyone know of a
>>>language that has zero-marked pseudo-partitive that also has a true
>>>partitive formed other than clausally?
>>>
>>>Thanks.  Grammars seldom note partitives of either sort, and true
>>>partitives almost never.
>>>
>>>Mickey
>>>
>>>Michael Noonan
>>>Professor of Linguistics
>>>Dept. of English
>>>University of Wisconsin
>>>Milwaukee, WI  53201
>>>USA
>>>
>>>Office:   414-229-4539
>>>Fax:   414-229-2643
>>>Messages: 414-229-4511
>>>Webpage:  http://www.uwm.edu/~noonan
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA
>>Associate Vice-President for Graduate Education
>>
>>
>>Mailing address:     School of Languages, Linguistics & Cultures
>>                     University of Manchester
>>                     Manchester M13 9PL
>>                     United Kingdom
>>
>>Tel (direct):        +44-(0)-161-275-3194
>>Fax:                 +44-(0)-161-275-3031