accusative + analytical DO markers

Sun May 26 12:08:07 UTC 2013

If you include pronouns in the scope of the query, then Hebrew also has 
doubly-case-marked forms such as

ot=i ACC=PREP.1SG
ot=xa ACC=PREP.2SGM
ot=ax ACC=PREP.2SGF
etc.

However, as suggested by the interlinear gloss "PREP", the pronominal 
enclitics aren't really accusatives, but rather non-nominative, or 
"prepositional" forms, which occur after other prepositions as well, 
such as l- 'to', b- 'in' / 'instrumental' and others, eg.

l=i to=PREP.1SG
l(e)=xa to=PREP.2SGM
l=ax to=PREP.2SGF
etc.

This seems very similar to what José describes for Spanish, and not 
quite what Sergey is looking for.

David

On 26/05/2013 19:58, "José M. García-Miguel" wrote:
> As Paolo says, DOM is a well-kown feature of some Romance languages 
> giving place to prepositional marking of some Direct Objects.
> But, I guess that the examples proposed by Paolo do not qualify as 
> "having both the accusative case and analytical direct object markers 
> (pre- or postpositions)", that Sergey was looking for. Nouns do not 
> vary for case, and I would not say that /Maria /is accusative [case] 
> in /Ho visto a Maria.
> /However, personal independent pronouns and pronominal clitics do vary 
> for case: Spanish /yo /[Nominative]//'I' vs /mí /[not-Nominative, 
> prepositional case] 'me' vs /me/ [1sg clitic], and in 3rd person 
> clitics Accusative /lo(s), la(s) /vs Dative /le(s)
> /Thus/, /in//Sp.///Me ha visto a mi /'(s)he has seen me', the object 
> is expressed by 1sg clitic /me/, the preposition /a/, and the 
> non-Nominative /mi
>
> /A//3rd person accusative clitic is compatible with an /a/-marked 
> Directo Object in the same clause (this is a common pattern in some 
> varieties of Spanish, mainly Buenos Aires Sp.,  and less common in 
> other varieties):
>
> /La          he     visto a       Maria /
> 3.ACC.F have seen PREP Maria
> 'I have seen Maria'/
> /
> This example has "both the accusative case [in the clitic /la/] and an 
> analytical direct object marker [preposition /a/]", but the accusative 
> case is not in the name /Maria./
>
> All best,
> Jose M. Garcia-Miguel
> University of Vigo
>
> El 26/05/2013 11:53, Paolo Ramat escribió:
>> Dear All,
>> DOM as obligatory marking of Direct Object (DO) is a well-known 
>> feature of (South)Italian dialects and other Romance varieties (e.g. 
>> Catalan)
>> I wouldn’t consider/Ich gehe durch den Gang/ as an ex. of DO. As 
>> Sergey rightly states, we have here a PP specifying the notion of 
>> ‘gehen’.
>> But when you have /Ho visto _a_/ /Maria/ ‘I saw Mary’ instead of 
>> standard Italian /Ho visto Maria,/ Catal/. //les mongesno estimen _a_ 
>> les nenes/‘the nuns don’t lik the girls’, /a/ is a real DO marker and 
>> the construction is Nomin./Accus. The use of DOM is subject to 
>> certain constraints: the OBJ has to be [+human] or, at least, 
>> [+anim],[+definite] etc.
>> References: A. Ledgeway, /From Latin to Romance/, OUP 2012.Iemmolo, 
>> Giorgio (2009), La marcatura differenziale dell’oggetto in siciliano 
>> antico./Arch. Glottol. Ital./94: 185-225; Iemmolo, Giorgioand Gerson 
>> Klumpp (in preparation). /Differential Object Marking: theoretical 
>> and empirical issues/. Special issue of /Linguistics/.
>> All best
>> Paolo
>> *From:* Sergey Lyosov <mailto:sergelyosov at INBOX.RU>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:20 PM
>> *To:* LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG 
>> <mailto:LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
>> *Subject:* Re: accusative + analytical DO markers
>>
>> Dear Ewa,
>>
>> thanks a lot!
>>
>> Your Polish example is as follows:
>>
>> - /zaatakować/‘attack, assault’ + NPACC
>>
>> - /napaść/‘attack, assault’ + preposition/na/with a NPACC (a 
>> grammaticalized allative construction).
>>
>> The cognate Russian verbs have the same government:
>>
>> atakovat' ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC
>>
>> napast' ‘attack, assault’ + preposition/na/with a NPACC
>>
>> Our colleague Scott T. Shell suggests me (within this thread) a 
>> similar example from
>>
>> German:
>>
>> Den Mann    habe    ich                gesehen.
>>
>> DEF.ACC man      AUX   1SG.NOM   saw
>>
>> 'I say the man.'
>>
>> Ich gehe   durch     den               Gang
>>
>> 1SG.NOM go       through  DEF.ACC    hallway
>>
>> 'I go through the hallway.'
>>
>> Yet neither Polish/Russian /na/nor German durch are Direct Object 
>> Markers pure and simple, they both retain their meanings as 
>> lative/locative prepositions. What I am looking for is a “pure” and 
>> (under certain conditions) obligatory Direct Object Marker (like `et 
>> in Hebrew) which synchronically has no other (more concrete) 
>> meanings. I wonder if this kind of DOM is at all compatible with ACC 
>> (which would amount to double marking of the Direct Object).
>>
>> I will address your Coptic example in the next email.
>>
>>   All best,
>>
>>   Sergey
>>
>>
>>
>> Суббота, 25 мая 2013, 16:37 UTC от "Zakrzewska, E.D." 
>> <E.D.Zakrzewska at uva.nl>:
>>
>>     Dear Sergey,
>>
>>     A good example is Polish, compare:
>>
>>     -/zaatakować/‘attack, assault’ + NPACC
>>
>>     -/napaść/‘attack, assault’ + preposition /na /with a NPACC (a
>>     grammaticalized allative construction).
>>
>>     Another example may be Coptic (Afroasiatic, the final stage of
>>     Ancient Egyptian). In Coptic there are two strategies to mark the
>>     direct object: head-marking and dependent-marking. Head-marking
>>     involves the use of the so-called construct or pronominal state
>>     allomorph of the verb to which a nominal, respectively pronominal
>>     direct object is attached. When the verb appears in the absolute
>>     state allomorph, dependent-marking of the object by means of a
>>     preposition is required. Several prepositions can occur in this
>>     function, of which /n-/ (dedicated preposition) and /e-/
>>     (grammaticalization of the allative) are most important.
>>
>>     Basic information about Coptic grammar can be found in Reintges
>>     C.H., /Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic dialect): a learner's grammar/,
>>     Köln: Köppe, 2004. I’m currently working on a comprehensive
>>     article on transitivity in Coptic, to be published in the
>>     /Proceedings of the 10th International Congress of Coptic Studies
>>     in Rome/ and I can send you a copy soon.
>>
>>     Best regards,
>>
>>     Ewa Zakrzewska
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *Van:* Discussion List for ALT
>>     [LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org] namens Sergey Lyosov
>>     [sergelyosov at inbox.ru]
>>     *Verzonden:* vrijdag 24 mei 2013 19:35
>>     *To:* LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>     *Onderwerp:* accusative + analytical DO markers
>>
>>     Dear colleagues,
>>     Do we know of languages that have both the accusative case and
>>     analytical direct object markers (pre- or postpositions)?
>>
>>     Lots of thanks,
>>     Sergey
>>
>>     Dr. Sergey Loesov
>>     Oriental Institute
>>     Russian State University for the Humanities
>>     6 Miusskaya pl. Moscow 125267, Russia.
>>
>>
>

-- 
David Gil

Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany

Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550119
Email: gil at eva.mpg.de
Webpage:  http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/

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