[Lingtyp] query: 'give' and 'do'/'make'

giorgio.arcodia at unimib.it giorgio.arcodia at unimib.it
Wed Feb 18 10:47:07 UTC 2015


If I may chime in, the use of 'davaj' (da-vaj 
give.IMPF-IMP.2SG) in Russian is pretty close to the use 
of 'dài' / 'dai' (da-i give-IMP.2SG) in Italian.
In Italian, it is (to me) an all-purpose exhortative form, 
which could be 'do', but also 'hurry up', 'cut it out', 
etc.

Giorgio F. A.

-- 
Dr. Giorgio Francesco Arcodia
Università degli Studi di Milano-Bicocca
Dipartimento di Scienze Umane per la Formazione
Edificio U6 - stanza 4101
Piazza dell'Ateneo Nuovo, 1
20126 Milano

Tel.: (+39) 02 6448 4946(+39) 02 6448 4946
Fax: (+39) 02 6448 4863
E-mail: giorgio.arcodia at unimib.it
On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:34:57 +0900
 David Gil <gil at eva.mpg.de> wrote:
> Marcel,
> 
> The Hebrew verb "n-t-n" ('give') is grammaticalized (as 
>in your example) as a permissive, a path of 
>grammaticalization that is quite common 
>cross-linguistically.  But it doesn't mean 'do', or 
>'make' (except to the extent that English "make" can be 
>used as a causative, which is somewhat akin to the 
>permissive).
> 
> Also, to the best of my (limited) knowledge of Russian, 
>the idiomatic use of "davaj" does not mean 'do' or 
>'make'.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> On 18/02/2015 16:16, Marcel Erdal wrote:
>> How about Modern Hebrew
>> Ten li liftor et ha-baaya
>>  'Let me solve the problem',
>> lit. ' Give me to-solve ACC the-problem'
>> and Russian davaj 'come on', lit. Give!'?
>> Marcel
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 18.02.2015, at 05:11, David Gil <gil at eva.mpg.de 
>><mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to Suzanne Kemmer and Foong Ha Yap for pointing 
>>>out the 'give'-causative connection.  Not exactly 
>>>'give'-'make' identity, but since 'make' also often 
>>>grammaticalizes as a causative, the two words can often 
>>>end up in "the same place", as it were.  In fact, this 
>>>can even happen within the same language, as in eastern 
>>>dialects of Malay, where 'kasi' ("give") and 'bikin' 
>>>("do"/"make") are both used to form periphrastic 
>>>causatives — see for example the recent PhD dissertation 
>>>by Betty Littamahuputty on Ternate Malay.
>>>
>>> Thanks also to Ludwig Paul for providing the first 
>>>robust case of 'give'-'do'/'make' identity from a 
>>>contemporary language from outside the Mekong-Mamberamo 
>>>(Southeast Asia to New Guinea) region, namely East 
>>>Iranian Pashto.
>>>
>>> Which brings me to a little puzzle, namely that a high 
>>>proportion of examples that have been offered so far for 
>>>'give'-'do'/'make' identity come from extinct literary 
>>>languages:  Classical Chinese, Old and Middle Persian, 
>>>and Early Middle English — I wonder whether this is a 
>>>coincidence.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 17/02/2015 20:25, Suzanne Kemmer wrote:
>>>> Words meaning ‘give’ can be a lexical source for 
>>>>causative auxiliary or verb, e.g. Luo miyo  (so that, for 
>>>>example,  I make it fall would be literally it I-give-it 
>>>>it-fall )--Sorry I don’t have a real example to hand. I 
>>>>believe cognates of miyo ‘give’ are also used as 
>>>>causative verb in other Nilo-Saharan languages.
>>>>
>>>> This is not exactly what you’re looking for because in 
>>>>Luo the word doesn’t mean ‘make’ in the sense of 
>>>>'create’. Analytic causatives are not often based on 
>>>>words meaning ‘make’ ; English is kind of exceptional in 
>>>>that regard.
>>>>
>>>> Still I think the connection between ‘give’ and 
>>>>causative constructions is worth keeping in mind, since 
>>>>conceptual connections attested in grammaticalization 
>>>>paths can also be borrowed/spread areally.
>>>>
>>>> References: the connection of ‘give’ with causative 
>>>>constructions is mentioned in Kemmer and Verhagen 1994, 
>>>>The grammar of causatives and the conceptual structure of 
>>>>events (Cognitive Linguistics 5).
>>>> Also Heine and Kuteva 2002,  World Lexicon of 
>>>>Grammaticalization,  list  ‘give’ —> causative marker as 
>>>>a recurrent grammaticalization path with examples from 
>>>>(as I recall) Southeast Asia.
>>>>
>>>> Suzanne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 17, 2015, at 10:58 PM, David Gil <gil at eva.mpg.de 
>>>>><mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to all of you who responded to my query 
>>>>>(reproduced below), either personally to me or to the 
>>>>>LINGTYP list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many of the examples came, rather surprisingly to me, 
>>>>>from familiar languages, such as the English "Do me a 
>>>>>hamburger" (meaning "Give me a hamburger") and "Give a 
>>>>>sigh" (meaning "Make a sigh") (the latter from a personal 
>>>>>message from John Haiman).
>>>>>
>>>>> While these examples suggest that the 'give'-'do'/'make' 
>>>>>connection is indeed cognitively "natural",  they would 
>>>>>appear to differ from the cases I'm working on. 
>>>>>Specifically, whereas in English and other such 
>>>>>languages, the primary way of saying 'give' and 
>>>>>'do'/'make' is by means of different words that would be 
>>>>>listed as distinct lexical items in any dictionary, in 
>>>>>languages such as Roon, Meyah, etc., there are no 
>>>>>distinct words for 'give' and 'do'/'make' (at least not 
>>>>>in the everyday lexicon), hence dictionaries of these 
>>>>>languages would list 'give' and 'do'/'make' as primary 
>>>>>meanings for the same word.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus, on the basis of the English-like usages, I would 
>>>>>now rephrase my query, and ask for languages in which the 
>>>>>same or related form has both 'give' and 'do'/'make' as 
>>>>>BASIC meanings, of the kind that would be listed in a 
>>>>>dictionary.  From the responses that I have received so 
>>>>>far, my impression (but please let me know if I've 
>>>>>misinterpreted anything) is that the following languages 
>>>>>fit the bill:  Classical Chinese (thanks to Randy LaPolla 
>>>>>and Giorgio Arcodia), the Angan ("Papuan") language Menya 
>>>>>(thanks to Carl Whitehead) and two Timor-Alor-Pantar 
>>>>>("Papuan") languages, Makalero and Makasae (thanks to 
>>>>>Juliette Huber).  But more examples would be greatly 
>>>>>appreciated!
>>>>>
>>>>> In particular, I find the Chinese-Papuan connection 
>>>>>tantalizing, as I have just completed a long paper 
>>>>>arguing for a Mekong-Mamberamo linguistic area extending 
>>>>>from Southeast Asia to Western New Guinea.  But I would 
>>>>>need much more data in order to see if there is any 
>>>>>connection between 'give'-'do'/'make' identity and the 
>>>>>Mekong-Mamberamo area.  (Of course, such a connection 
>>>>>would be a very weak one at best, given the predominance 
>>>>>of languages without 'give'-'do'/'make' identity even 
>>>>>within the area in question).
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, many thanks, and I look forward to more data!
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 16/02/2015 15:14, David Gil wrote:
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anybody know of languages in which 'give' and 
>>>>>>'do'/'make' are expressed with the same or related words? 
>>>>>> Or of cases in which forms expressing one of these two 
>>>>>>meanings are historically derived from forms expressing 
>>>>>>the other meaning?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Further details:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My interest in this question stems from current field 
>>>>>>work on Roon (South Halmahera West New Guinea, 
>>>>>>Austronesian).  In Roon there is a single form /be/ 
>>>>>>expressing both 'give' and 'do'/'make'.  (In fact, the 
>>>>>>same form /be /is associated with a wide range of 
>>>>>>grammatical and semantic functions, most or all of which 
>>>>>>seem to be derivable diachronically and possibly also 
>>>>>>synchronically from either 'give' or 'do'/'make'.)  A 
>>>>>>cognate form /be /meaning both 'give' and 'do'/'make' is 
>>>>>>also present in closely related Biak and Dusner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Identical words for 'give' and 'do'/'make' (but 
>>>>>>unrelated to /be/) also occur in at least two nearby 
>>>>>>non-Austronesian languages, Meyah and Hatam, and in the 
>>>>>>geographically proximate Austronesian language Wooi. 
>>>>>> However, I have not yet been able to find any other 
>>>>>>examples of 'give'-'do'/'make' identity in other 
>>>>>>languages of the region, Austronesian or otherwise. 
>>>>>> Thus, 'give'-'do'/'make' identity seems to be an areal 
>>>>>>characteristic of a small region of the eastern Bird's 
>>>>>>Head and western Cenderawasih Bay, in which it presumably 
>>>>>>spread from the original non-Austronesian to the 
>>>>>>intrusive Austronesian languages, through metatypy, 
>>>>>>relexification, or some such process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In order to gauge the significance of 'give'-'do'/'make' 
>>>>>>identity as a diagnostic feature of language contact, I 
>>>>>>am thus interested in getting a feel for how widespread 
>>>>>>this feature is across the world's languages.  For what 
>>>>>>it's worth, I can't think of any examples from other 
>>>>>>parts of the world — can you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am also interested in any ideas you might have about 
>>>>>>what the semantic basis of the connection between 'give' 
>>>>>>and 'do'/'make', and possible mechanisms of semantic 
>>>>>>generalization.  In the Roon/Biak/Dusner case, at least, 
>>>>>>the form /be/ is clearly cognate with the 
>>>>>>proto-Malayo-Polynesian word for 'give', suggesting that 
>>>>>>the direction of semantic spread was from 'give' to 
>>>>>>'do'/'make'.  But I have no information on the other 
>>>>>>known cases (Meyah, Hatam, Wooi).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> David Gil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>>>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>>>>>> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
>>>>>> Email:gil at eva.mpg.de  <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
>>>>>> Webpage:http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/ 
>>>>>> <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> David Gil
>>>>>
>>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>>>>> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
>>>>>
>>>>> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
>>>>> Email:gil at eva.mpg.de  <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
>>>>> Webpage:http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/ 
>>>>> <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org 
>>>>><mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>>>>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> David Gil
>>>
>>> Department of Linguistics
>>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>>> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
>>>
>>> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
>>> Email:gil at eva.mpg.de  <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
>>> Webpage:http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/ 
>>> <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org 
>>><mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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> 
> -- 
> David Gil
> 
> Department of Linguistics
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
> 
> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> Email: gil at eva.mpg.de
> Webpage:  http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
> 



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