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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Wolfgang,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>thanks for your remarks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have inserted some further observations directly
in your letter.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Paolo</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>prof.Paolo Ramat<BR>Università di Pavia<BR>Dipartimento di Linguistica
Teorica e Applicata<BR>tel. ##39 0382 984 484<BR>fax ##39 0382 984 487<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de
href="mailto:W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de">Wolfgang Schulze</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=paoram@UNIPV.IT
href="mailto:paoram@UNIPV.IT">Paolo Ramat</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 30, 2007 7:10 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: zero-marked true
partitives</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dear Paolo,<BR>maybe that in German we have a larger number of such
classifiers.</DIV>
<DIV><EM>No doubt, especially with mass nouns! See e.g.
'drei Handvoll [<U>not</U> *Handvolle !] Salz' (vs. *drei Salz/
??Saelze). Cp. Fr. Serzisko in H. Seiler/Chr.Lehmann (eds.), Apprehension.Das
Sprachliche Erfassen von Gegenstaende.I, 1982; G. Narr:147-159. Ibid., p.
176,U.Koelver writes as follows:"hier [i.e. in Thai,Vietnam. and Chin.]
erfuellt ein Klassifikator verbunden mit einem Demonstrativ keinerlei
referentielle Funktion, sondern die Definitheit der NP haftet allein am
Demonstrativ, das die Identifizierung des Redegegenstandes in relativer
Distanz zur Sprechsituation bewirkt". This has to do with the initial query by
M.Noonan: </EM>PSEUDO-PARTITIVE 'a kilo of tea', versus TRUE PARTITIVE 'a kilo
of that tea'. <EM>Pseudo-partitives are units of measure. Moreover, ' Ein Glas
Wein' is different from 'Ein Glas von diesem Wein'</EM></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, in my German, these are rarely used. This morning, I asked my
wife who was on her way driving into town in order to do some shopping:
"Bringst du einen Salat mit?" It was clear to her that I had in mind "einen
Kopf Salat", but I guess she would have been rather irritated if I had used
this construction. Something the like seems to happen when you ask the
bar keeper: "Ich hätte gerne ein Bier". The overt variant "Ich hätte gern ein
Glas Bier" would be rather marked (and, maybe affected). Neverless, some
'classifyer-like' constructions seem to be partitive in nature, compare: Gib
mir mal ein Stück Zeitung (said in order clean up some dirt) [alternatively,
we have: Gib mir mal n Stück vonner Zeitung / here, I use Colloquial German].
By the way: Kartoffelsalat, Fischsalat etc. are - according to my opinion -
not examples of classification, but simply compounds (I guess this is what you
wanted to say).</DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, indeed. </FONT></EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></EM> </DIV>
<DIV> A 'Kopfsalat' falls into the same domain. </DIV>
<DIV><EM>I am not quite sure: </EM>A Kopfsalat differs from other kinds of
'Salat' because of its shape ('Salat wie ein Kopf' <EM>: but a Kartoffelsalat
isn't a 'Salat wie ein Fleisch'... </EM>). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Hence, 'drei Kopf Kopfsalat' would theoretically (!) be
possible...<BR>Best wishes,<BR>Wolfgang<BR><BR>Paolo Ramat wrote: </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:006801c7d2c5$5380aac0$0301a8c0@acerpaolo
type="cite">Just a marginal note: <BR>I agree with Frans: The
'pseudo-partitive construction' is in fact a classifier construction.
<BR>you can't buy in the greengrocer shop "Einen Salat", but just "Einen
Kopf Salat", oder "Einen Kopfsalat", while in a restaurant you have to
specify what kind of salad you want: "Kartoffelsalat, Oelsalat...." ,
and even "Fleisch-" or "Fischsalat". <BR>The 'true partitive' would be
"Bitte geben Sie mir zwei Koepfe von diesem Salat". <BR><BR>Ciao! <BR>Paolo
<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>
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<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">----------------------------------------------------------<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(49,132,155); FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Prof.
Dr. Wolfgang
Schulze<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">----------------------------------------------------------
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Primary
contact:
<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Institut für
Allgemeine & Typologische Sprachwissenschaft
<SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dept. II / F 13
<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität
München<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Geschwister-Scholl-Platz
1<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">D-80539
München<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Tel.:
0049-(0)89-2180-2486
(Secretary)<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><SPAN>
</SPAN>0049-(0)89-2180-5343
(Office)<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Fax:<SPAN>
</SPAN>0049-(0)89-2180-5345<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Email:
</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="mailto:W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de</SPAN></A> /// <A
href="mailto:Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de">Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de</A></SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Web: </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.als.lmu/de/mitarbeiter/index.php"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>http://www.als.lmu/de/mitarbeiter/index.php</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">----------------------------------------------------------<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Second
contact:<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Katedra
Germanistiký<SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Fakulta
humanitných
vied<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Univerzita Mateja
Béla / Banská
Bystrica<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Tajovského
40<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">SK-97401 Banská
Bystrica<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Tel:
(00421)-(0)48-4465108<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Fax:
(00421)-(0)48-4465512<SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Email:
</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="mailto:Schulze@fhv.umb.sk"><SPAN
lang=EN-US>Schulze@fhv.umb.sk</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Web: <A
href="http://www.fhv.umb.sk/app/user.php?user=schulze">http://www.fhv.umb.sk/app/user.php?user=schulze</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">----------------------------------------------------------<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P
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