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<small><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I</font><font
face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">sn't it simply the case that
German <i>Salat</i> is systematically ambiguous betwen 'lettuce' and
'salad' (probably because the prototypical salad in German-speaking
culture is prepared from lettuce) but that the word has a different
syntax (including classi- and quantifiers, (pseudo-)partitve
constructions etc.) depending on the meaning? I have the notion that
the robustness of language is due to the interplay of different
disambiguating systems: context, syntax, inflection, etc. By robustness
I mean the fact that Wolfgang's wife didn't come home with a package of
coleslaw or a dish of pasta salad (if he had said <i>Wir brauchen noch
einen Salat zum Essen heute abend, kannst Du beim Italiener vorbeigehen?</i>
the situation would have been different, assuming that the Italian
restaurant at the corner sells food to take home. In the latter case
the plural <i>Salate</i> would have been possible, too.)<br>
You could even construct a context where <i>eine Handvoll Salze </i>(never
<i>Sälze</i>) is possible, like talking about a chemistry lecturer: <i>Er
redete über vier, fünf Säuren und dann über eine Handvoll Salze</i>. (<i>Eine
Handvoll Säuren</i> would be less likely, though, try to figture out
why.) But again, <i>Salz</i> is both 'salt' and 'sodium chloride'.<br>
By the way (just back from Dublin), <i>a glass of Guinness</i> means
something different in Ireland and England: a precise measurement (half
a pint, hence appropriate for ordering) vs. a description of a
container (useless for ordering, since you wouldn't drink stout from
e.g. a mug).<br>
Hartmut<br>
<br>
</font></small>Paolo Ramat wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid001201c7d353$83a196e0$0301a8c0@acerpaolo"
type="cite">
<title></title>
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dear Wolfgang,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">thanks for your remarks!</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I have inserted some further
observations directly in your letter.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Best,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Paolo</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>prof.Paolo Ramat<br>
Università di Pavia<br>
Dipartimento di Linguistica Teorica e Applicata<br>
tel. ##39 0382 984 484<br>
fax ##39 0382 984 487<br>
</div>
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style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"
dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de"
href="mailto:W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de">Wolfgang Schulze</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="paoram@UNIPV.IT" href="mailto:paoram@UNIPV.IT">Paolo Ramat</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Cc:</b>
<a title="LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, July 30, 2007 7:10 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: zero-marked true partitives</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dear Paolo,<br>
maybe that in German we have a larger number of such classifiers.</div>
<div><em>No doubt, especially with mass nouns! See e.g.
'drei Handvoll [<u>not</u> *Handvolle !] Salz' (vs. *drei Salz/
??Saelze). Cp. Fr. Serzisko in H. Seiler/Chr.Lehmann (eds.),
Apprehension.Das Sprachliche Erfassen von Gegenstaende.I, 1982; G.
Narr:147-159. Ibid., p. 176,U.Koelver writes as follows:"hier [i.e. in
Thai,Vietnam. and Chin.] erfuellt ein Klassifikator verbunden mit einem
Demonstrativ keinerlei referentielle Funktion, sondern die Definitheit
der NP haftet allein am Demonstrativ, das die Identifizierung des
Redegegenstandes in relativer Distanz zur Sprechsituation bewirkt".
This has to do with the initial query by M.Noonan: </em>PSEUDO-PARTITIVE
'a kilo of tea', versus TRUE PARTITIVE 'a kilo of that tea'. <em>Pseudo-partitives
are units of measure. Moreover, ' Ein Glas Wein' is different from 'Ein
Glas von diesem Wein'</em></div>
<div> </div>
<div>However, in my German, these are rarely used. This morning, I
asked my wife who was on her way driving into town in order to do some
shopping: "Bringst du einen Salat mit?" It was clear to her that I had
in mind "einen Kopf Salat", but I guess she would have been rather
irritated if I had used this construction. Something the like seems to
happen when you ask the bar keeper: "Ich hätte gerne ein Bier". The
overt variant "Ich hätte gern ein Glas Bier" would be rather marked
(and, maybe affected). Neverless, some 'classifyer-like' constructions
seem to be partitive in nature, compare: Gib mir mal ein Stück Zeitung
(said in order clean up some dirt) [alternatively, we have: Gib mir mal
n Stück vonner Zeitung / here, I use Colloquial German]. By the way:
Kartoffelsalat, Fischsalat etc. are - according to my opinion - not
examples of classification, but simply compounds (I guess this is what
you wanted to say).</div>
<div><em><font face="Arial" size="2">Yes, indeed. </font></em></div>
<div><em></em> </div>
<div> A 'Kopfsalat' falls into the same domain. </div>
<div><em>I am not quite sure: </em>A Kopfsalat differs from other
kinds of 'Salat' because of its shape ('Salat wie ein Kopf' <em>: but
a Kartoffelsalat isn't a 'Salat wie ein Fleisch'... </em>). </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Hence, 'drei Kopf Kopfsalat' would theoretically (!) be
possible...<br>
Best wishes,<br>
Wolfgang<br>
<br>
Paolo Ramat wrote: </div>
<blockquote cite="mid:006801c7d2c5$5380aac0$0301a8c0@acerpaolo"
type="cite">Just a marginal note: <br>
I agree with Frans: The 'pseudo-partitive construction' is in fact a
classifier construction. <br>
you can't buy in the greengrocer shop "Einen Salat", but just "Einen
Kopf Salat", oder "Einen Kopfsalat", while in a restaurant you have to
specify what kind of salad you want: "Kartoffelsalat, Oelsalat...." ,
and even "Fleisch-" or "Fischsalat". <br>
The 'true partitive' would be "Bitte geben Sie mir zwei Koepfe von
diesem Salat". <br>
<br>
Ciao! <br>
Paolo <br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">----------------------------------------------------------<O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(49, 132, 155); font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Schulze<span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">----------------------------------------------------------
<O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size: 9pt; color: red; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">Primary
contact: <span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">Institut
für Allgemeine & Typologische Sprachwissenschaft <span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">Dept. II
/ F 13 <span> </span><span> </span><span> </span><span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität
München<span> </span><span> </span><span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">Geschwister-Scholl-Platz
1<span> </span><span> </span><span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">D-80539
München<span> </span><span> </span><span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">Tel.: 0049-(0)89-2180-2486 (Secretary)<span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US"><span> </span>0049-(0)89-2180-5343 (Office)<span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">Fax:<span> </span>0049-(0)89-2180-5345<span>
</span><span> </span><span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">Email: </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"><a
href="mailto:W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de"><span lang="EN-US">W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de</span></a>
/// <a href="mailto:Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de">Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de</a></span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US"><span> </span><span> </span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">Web: </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"><a
href="http://www.als.lmu/de/mitarbeiter/index.php"><span lang="EN-US">http://www.als.lmu/de/mitarbeiter/index.php</span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US"><span> </span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">----------------------------------------------------------<O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size: 9pt; color: red; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">Second contact:<span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">Katedra
Germanistiký<span> </span><span> </span><span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">Fakulta
humanitných vied<span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">Univerzita Mateja Béla / Banská Bystrica<span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">Tajovského 40<span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">SK-97401 Banská Bystrica<span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">Tel: (00421)-(0)48-4465108<span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">Fax: (00421)-(0)48-4465512<span> </span><span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US">Email: </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"><a
href="mailto:Schulze@fhv.umb.sk"><span lang="EN-US">Schulze@fhv.umb.sk</span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"
lang="EN-US"><span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">Web: <a
href="http://www.fhv.umb.sk/app/user.php?user=schulze">http://www.fhv.umb.sk/app/user.php?user=schulze</a></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';"><span>
</span><span> </span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif';">----------------------------------------------------------<O:P></O:P></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><O:P></O:P></span></p>
</div>
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