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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Prof. Paolo Ramat<BR>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori
(IUSS)<BR>Responsabile della classe di Scienze Umane<BR>V.le Lungo Ticino Sforza
56, 27100 Pavia – Italia<BR>Tel. +39 0382 375811 Fax +39 0382 375899 </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=paoram@unipv.it href="mailto:paoram@unipv.it">Paolo Ramat</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=bernard.fradin@LINGUIST.JUSSIEU.FR
href="mailto:bernard.fradin@LINGUIST.JUSSIEU.FR">Bernard Fradin</A> ; <A
title=LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:35 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: Crackers</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hallo to everybody!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Italian crackers look as follow:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To my surprise a verb meaning "<FONT face=Times
size=3>being partially fractured though without the parts completely separate or
without the whole completely destroyed<FONT face=Arial size=2>" hardly exists.
There is the subst. <EM>fessura</EM> (<Lat.
<EM>fissura</EM>)</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>but the verb <EM>fessurarsi</EM> (intrans.,
reflex.) is very rare. And a <EM>frattura</EM> (< Lat. <EM>fractura</EM>)
means something different: you may have/cause (trans.) a <EM>frattura</EM>
of a bone, but not of<FONT face=Times size=3> something, "preferably an
artefact, of brittle consistency, hard but breakable, such as vases or window
panes made of glass, plates made of porcelain". </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Times size=3>Moreover, you can hardly
say ?*<EM>Il vaso si fessura</EM> (usually a vase <EM>si rompe,
</EM>"cracks"<FONT face=Arial size=2>). </FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Times size=3><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Thus, Italian does not completely overlap the French usages: <EM>?*Il
calore ha fatto fessurare /fessurarsi il
vaso</EM></FONT> </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would say that <EM>rompersi</EM> is used
also for <EM>fessurarsi,</EM> (the main difference being that trans<EM>.
rompere</EM> exists along with the reflex. <EM>rompersi</EM>, while
*<EM>fessurare</EM> (trans.) does not exist (any longer)). The default
form would be a paraphrase: <EM>Il calore ha prodotto una fessura sul /
nel vaso</EM> <EM>.</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>Best,</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Paolo</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV>Prof. Paolo Ramat<BR>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori
(IUSS)<BR>Responsabile della classe di Scienze Umane<BR>V.le Lungo Ticino Sforza
56, 27100 Pavia – Italia<BR>Tel. +39 0382 375811 Fax +39 0382 375899 </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=bernard.fradin@LINGUIST.JUSSIEU.FR
href="mailto:bernard.fradin@LINGUIST.JUSSIEU.FR">Bernard Fradin</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 24, 2008 5:45
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Crackers</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>Dear Frans
and everybody,
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>As expected, in French nothing corresponds exactly to the situation we
observe in English.</DIV>
<DIV>The verb that corresponds to <I>crack</I> is <I>craqueler</I> (and not
<I>craquer</I>). We can have the following:</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>(1) Le vase a une craquelure (<I>< craqueler+ure, </I>-ure
nouns regularly denote the result cf. <I>blessure</I> 'wounding' <
<I>blesser</I> 'to wound').</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>(2) a. Le vase est craquelé.</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>b. Le vase se
craquèle. but<BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>c. *Le vase
craquèle.<BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>However, we do have (3); other examples in TLF:</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>(3) La chaleur a craquelé le vase.</DIV>
<DIV> 'Heat cracks the vase'</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>For <I>fissurer</I> < lat. fissura 'small crack', the distribution is
slightly different and more in keeping with what we have in German:</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>(4) Le vase a une fissure.</DIV>
<DIV>(5) a. Le vase est fissuré.</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>b. Le vase se
fissure.<BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>c. *Le vase
fissure.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>(6) *La chaleur a fissuré le vase'</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>but (7) is ok, obviously:</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>(7) La chaleur a fait se fissurer le vase.</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>'Heat make the
vase crack'<BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Best,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bernard</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>Le 24 juin 08 à 13:15, Frans Plank a écrit :</DIV><BR
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<DIV><FONT face=Times color=#000000><B>Crackers<BR></B></FONT></DIV><FONT
class=Apple-style-span face=Times><B><BR></B></FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
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<DIV>Bernard Fradin</DIV>
<DIV>Tél. 33 (0) 1 57 27 57 84</DIV>
<DIV><B style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
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style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Adresse postale / postal
address</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></B></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span><I style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
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style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-STYLE: italic">Laboratoire de linguistique
formelle</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></I> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span>Case 7031, 2 place Jussieu</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>F-75251 PARIS CEDEX 05</DIV>
<DIV><B style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
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style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Adresse géographique /geographical
address</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></B></DIV>
<DIV>30, rue du Château des Rentiers</DIV>
<DIV>F-75013 PARIS</DIV>
<DIV><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11px"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 11px">M7, bus PC2, T3: Porte d'Ivry; </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11px"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 11px">M14: Olympiades (+ 10 mn de marche / a 10 mn
walk)</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 11px"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-SIZE: 11px">Bus 83: Marcel Duchamp</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV><BR
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