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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear Colleagues,<br>
Martin has invited members of this list to
comment upon his recent text on "</span><span style="">Comparative
concepts and descriptive categories in cross-linguistic studies"</span><span
lang="EN-US">. So please allow me to drop some lines about the issue
at debate (impromtu, I admit).
When working through Martin's paper, I repeatedly had the impression
that we
have to deal with some kind of sham debate. What Martin calls
'comparative
concepts' comes - in my eyes - close to comparative descriptive
'concepts'
somehow (!) derived from pre-linguistic ('semantic' and 'structural')
domains. The
term 'concept' is perhaps a bit misleading as it is normally used in a
cognitive sense denoting (for instance) experience-based, schematized,
and
categorized 'images'. If I understand Martin correctly, we should
rather speak
of comparative descriptive terms or a <i>comparative descriptive
nomenclature</i>. The
main question naturally is whether the elements of this nomenclature
are observable
parts of the 'objects' included into a corresponding taxonomy or
whether they are
mere descriptors "<i>specifically created by typologists for the
purposes of
comparison</i>" as Martin has put it. This question is crucial with
respect to
the 'typology' of a tertium comparationis (t.c.). A t.c. can be (among
others)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><span style=""></span><br>
-
<span style=""> </span>Intrinsic: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><span style=""></span>a.
The t.c. is a feature that is part of all objects in a scientifically
established <span style=""></span>paradigm
(highest common factor) and present as such in terms of at least <span
style=""></span>one object. The other
members of the paradigm are then measured with <span style=""></span>respect
to their 'distance' from this factor. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><span style=""></span>b.
The t.c. is an abstraction from properties of all members in a
scientifically<span style=""> </span>established paradigm. The
highest common factor is here not present in terms<span style=""> </span>of
a discrete member of the paradigm.<span style=""> </span><span
style=""> </span><span style=""> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><span style=""><br>
</span>-
Extrinsic:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><span style=""></span>The
t.c. is not part of the paradigm, but postulated in terms of a paradigm-<span
style=""></span>external feature that is seen
in a causal relationship with properties of the<span style=""></span>
members of
the paradigm.<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">As far as I can see, Martin
does not make sufficiently
clear (to me), where to put </span><span lang="EN-US">in
this typology</span><span lang="EN-US"> his comparative concepts (that
is - in my terms -
the elements of a comparative descriptive nomenclature (CDN, to be
short)) . When alluding to "<i>conceptual-semantic concepts, formal
concepts, general concepts</i>" extrinsic factors seem to become
relevant
(note that - again in my humble view - the term 'conceptual-semantic
concepts'
is rather awkward. What is meant by the seemingly tautological
'conceptual
concepts'?). However, if the elements of Martin's CDN are related to
extrinsic
(pre-linguistic) factors, we should learn more about how these
descriptive
elements of the CDN have been elaborated. Martin gives numerous
examples that
illustrate the derivation of CDN elements from in fact pre-linguistic
(not
cross-linguistic) categorial, conceptual, or procedural entities. Note
that, in
this sense, Martin's claim that "<i>[o]n the categorial universalist
view,
categories in particular languages instantiate cross-linguistic
categories, and
they can thus be equated across languages</i>" (p.3) is a bit
misleading: As
far as I can see, the categorial universalist view does not refer to
linguistic
categories as such, but to the hypothesis that they are grounded in UG.
I guess
that nobody in Typology would today refer to a pre-scientific
methodology that
starts from intrinsic cross-linguistic categories that are not
motivated and
governed by pre-linguistic factors, be it UG or other (e.g. holistic)
models of
cognition. The problem is that except for the UG paradigm and some
other approaches
to Cognitive Linguistics (such as Cognitive Grammar, Radical
Experientialism
etc.) the extrinsic motivation of elements of the CDN is rarely spelt
out in
details or in terms of a full-fledged theory. For instance, it is not
clear to
me why Martin assumes that e.g. 'position' and 'special' are 'general
concepts'
and that 'syntactic construction' is a universal formal concept. What
is the
model that motivates this assumption? The same holds for the "<i>universal
formal concept 'lexeme' and the conceptual-semantic concepts 'property'
and
'modify'</i>", or for the formulation: "A<i>n ergative case is a
morphological category that has among its functions the coding of the
agent of
typical transitive clauses, when this is coded differently from the
patient</i>" (by itself a problematic definition).
What is the theory that explains to us the notion of 'agent' and of is
a
'typical (sic!) transitive clause'? As long as we lack a coherent
theory that
helps us to derive the t.c.'s of typology from a coherent and testable
model of
the motivation of language and language properties, elements of the CDN
are at
risk to be arbitrarily related to intuitively establish 'general'
concepts. In
this sense, preference should be given to models that try at least to
systematize
the motivation of elements of the CDN in order to bring the
CDN-paradigm closer
to a 'natural model of language'. In other words: I am left with the
impression
that Martin's comparative concepts do much the same t.c.'s do that are
explicitly
derived from a specific model of language, although they (occasionally)
seem to
be more impressionistic than the latter ones. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Best wishes,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Wolfgang <span style=""> </span><span
style=""> </span><span style=""> </span></span></p>
<br>
<br>
Martin Haspelmath wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4877713F.40907@eva.mpg.de" type="cite">Dear
LINGTYP readers,
<br>
<br>
Some of you may have seen the paper by F. Newmeyer in LT 2007 defending
cross-linguistic categories, reacting to a paper of mine in the same
issue (and earlier work by William Croft and Matthew Dryer) where we
take the position that grammatical categories are strictly
language-specific ("categorial particularism").
<br>
<br>
I have just completed a first draft of a paper that reacts to
Newmeyer's defense of cross-linguistic categories and explains in some
detail how typology is possible in the face of category diversity
("Comparative concepts and descriptive categories in cross-linguistic
studies"). If you're interested, you can find it on my web page
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://email.eva.mpg.de/~haspelmt/papers.html">http://email.eva.mpg.de/~haspelmt/papers.html</a>). An abstract is
included below.
<br>
<br>
I'd be interested in any comments, on this list or by e-mail just to
me.
<br>
<br>
Greetings,
<br>
Martin Haspelmath
<br>
<br>
******************
<br>
<br>
Comparative concepts and descriptive categories in cross-linguistic
studies
<br>
Martin Haspelmath, July 2008
<br>
<br>
Abstract
<br>
<br>
In this paper I argue that cross-linguistic grammatical comparison
cannot be based on grammatical categories, because these are
language-specific. Instead, typology must be (and usually is) based on
a special set of comparative concepts that are specifically created by
typologists for the purposes of comparison.
<br>
Descriptive formal categories cannot be equated across languages
because the criteria for category-assignment are different from
language to language. This old structuralist insight (called categorial
particularism) has recently been emphasized again by several linguists,
but the idea that typologists need to identify "cross-linguistic
categories" before they can compare languages is still widespread.
Instead, what they have to do (and normally do in practice) is to
create comparative concepts that help them to identify comparable
phenomena across languages and to formulate cross-linguistic
generalizations. Comparative concepts have to be universally
applicable, so they can only be based on other universally applicable
concepts: conceptual-semantic concepts, formal concepts, general
concepts, and other comparative concepts.
<br>
If, by contrast, one espouses categorial universalism and assumes
cross-linguistic categories, as many generative linguists do, typology
works by equating comparable categories in different languages, which
are said to "instantiate" a cross-linguistic category. But in
typological practice, all that is required is that a language-specific
category matches a comparative concept. For example, the Russian
Dative, the Turkish Dative and the Finnish Allative all match the
comparative concept 'dative case', but they are very different
distributionally and semantically and therefore cannot be equated and
cannot instantiate a cross-linguistic category 'dative'.
<br>
Comparative concepts are not always purely semantically-based
concepts, but outside of phonology they usually contain some semantic
components. If one is not confident about the universality of meanings,
one can substitute extralinguistic contexts for universal meanings. The
view that descriptive categories are different across languages and
different from comparative concepts leads to terminological problems,
which are also discussed here. Finally, I observe that the adoption of
categorial universalism has actually impeded, not facilitated,
cross-linguistic research.
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">----------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b style=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: gray;"
lang="EN-US">Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Schulze<span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">----------------------------------------------------------
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><i style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: red;">Primary
contact: <span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Institut
für Allgemeine &
Typologische Sprachwissenschaft <span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Dept. II
/ F 13 <span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span
style=""> </span><span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität
München<span style=""> </span><span
style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span
style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Geschwister-Scholl-Platz
1<span style=""> </span><span
style=""> </span><span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">D-80539
München<span style=""> </span><span
style=""> </span><span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">Tel.: 0049-(0)89-2180-2486 (Secretary)<span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US"><span style=""> </span>0049-(0)89-2180-5343
(Office)<span style=""> </span><span
style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">Fax:<span style=""> </span>0049-(0)89-2180-5345<span
style=""> </span><span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><span
style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">Email: </span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"><a
href="mailto:W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de"><span style="" lang="EN-US">W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de</span></a>
/// <a href="mailto:Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de">Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de</a></span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US"><span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span
style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">Web: <span style="color: rgb(192, 0, 0);">New page
(change bookmarks!)</span>: <a href="http://www.ats.lmu.de/index.html">http://www.ats.lmu.de/index.html</a><span
style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">Personal homepage: <a
href="http://www.wolfgangschulze.in-devir.com">http://www.wolfgangschulze.in-devir.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US"><span style=""> </span>----------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><i style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: red;"
lang="EN-US">Second contact:<span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Katedra
Germanistiký<span style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><span
style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Fakulta
humanitných vied<span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">Univerzita Mateja Béla / Banská Bystrica<span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">Tajovského 40<span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">SK-97401 Banská Bystrica<span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">Tel: (00421)-(0)48-4465108<span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">Fax: (00421)-(0)48-4465512<span style=""> </span><span
style="">
</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
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style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"><a
href="mailto:Schulze@fhv.umb.sk"><span style="" lang="EN-US">Schulze@fhv.umb.sk</span></a></span><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"
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</span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Web: <a
href="http://www.fhv.umb.sk/app/user.php?user=schulze">http://www.fhv.umb.sk/app/user.php?user=schulze</a></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"><span
style=""> </span><span style=""> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">----------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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