<div>David ,Nicholas, Mike...</div>
<div>I thought about it further, but it is difficult to find any examples like that in Japanese. I talked with a French friend of mine who has lived in Japan for many years, and he said he hasnt heard any such nicknames among Japanese. </div>
<div>We have humours of course, but often foreign people living here find it different from theirs, not that Japanese ones are peculiar, but that what we find funny may be quite culturally conditioned, or culturally sensitive,. We have hiniku which Nicholas pointed out, (in other words, we say, atekosuri,) but this sounds a bit like nastyexpressions with negative connotation, unless you use this term in a way'such as' The situation turned out so well, and it is hiniku, as we didnt expect such a good ending, etc. </div>
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<div>By the way, this French friend told me that in French a father sometimes calls his small son 'mon grand'. This is an 'affectionate' expression surely, in which the father probably let his son feel that he is already 'a grand person', or that the father is treating him as a big person. And this reminded me of Neku (a language from New Caledonia), which I have been working for past years, There, often a small boy is called 'papa'. </div>
<div>However, this is again a bit different, involving another issue though, as in kinship terms there, grandfather and grandson are called the same way, Native people there explain that they call small boys like that with respect.</div>
<div>(about Tora-san, it s funny but we don t have image of 'fierce strong tiger', (maybe because this series of films are so famous), but his name sounds old-fashioned and comical.)</div>
<div>Midori</div>
<div>(Tokyo Woman's Christian University)</div>
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<div>2009/11/26 David Gil <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>></span><br></div>
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<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Thanks, Midori and Mike, for these clarifications.<br><br>But I still need to ask Midori one further question... My original use of the term "Sarcastic..." was perhaps unfortunate, since it implies a certain negativity, or verbal aggression, that is definitely *not* an intrinstic part of the phenomenon in question. (For example, in my original query, calling a dark-skinned person "white" was, if anything, a compliment, in a society which, like many others, prefers lighter skin tones. Similarly, many or most of the English and other examples that have been offered seem to me to be affectionate, and devoid of any negative connotations.) Which is why I now prefer to use the more neutral term "Humorous Antonymic Nicknames". So my question to Midori, then, is as follows: given the claimed Japanese desire to avoid the perceived unpleasantness of sarcasm, are there nevertheless examples of Humorous Antonymic Nicknames that can be used in a non-sarcastic way, or is the phenomenon of Humorous Antonymic Nicknames really absent from Japan (as it apparently is in most parts of Indonesia)?<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>David</font>
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<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Yes, I agree with Midori fully. As a semi-outsider<br>observer-participant in Japan (for 18 years!), I must admit that my<br>
sarcastic wit was NOT fully appreciated ... EXCEPT in the Deaf<br>community (where they love sarcasm!) and among exchange students from<br>China (mostly Shanghai) and Mongolia (well, i only had ONE of those).<br>Appreciation of sarcasm was one of a list of features that I would<br>
list that separates Japanese Deaf culture as distinct within "normal"<br>Japanese culture.<br><br>Irony on the other goes over quite well ... with almost everyone in Japan.<br><br>On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 5:58 AM, Midori Osumi <<a href="mailto:nekubunpoo@gmail.com" target="_blank">nekubunpoo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">To the suggestion Nicholas made, re.Tora-san,<br>i think it s not the case. Tora is shortened form of Torajiroo, which is<br>
his real name, and his name does not make us feel sarcastic. Maybe, he was<br>born in the tiger year, too, which is the reason for his name...<br> In fact, Japanese does not have this habit, i guess, Sarcasm, or irony,<br>
which may be heard often, and probably related to the idea such as wits,<br>among esp British people (?)but in Japan, it is not considered as anything a<br>good thing to do. We have Senryuu, a literary art form, which is like<br>
Haiku, short poem, in which people purt their criticism in ironical, subtle<br>way, against the society or authority in the form of poem, as they couldnt<br>say that openly.<br>re pensons'names, the japanese language council or something reviews<br>
characters which are usable or not, for names (of newly born children), and<br>they sometimes eliminate some characters which are associated to evil,<br>death, excrements, curse, etc,, as they view that these naming may lead to<br>
discrimination.<br><br>Midori Osumi<br><br>2009/11/26 Nicholas Ostler <<a href="mailto:nostler@chibcha.demon.co.uk" target="_blank">nostler@chibcha.demon.co.uk</a>><br> <br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">David Gil wrote:<br> <br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">A little bit under 24 hours after posting the original query, I've<br>received a slew of examples from English, a few nice examples from other<br>
European languages, but very little from the rest of the world -- the only<br>clear-cut example so far coming from the Australian language Bardi (thanks<br>to Claire Bowern). So are Humorous Antonymic Nicknames really a mostly<br>
European phenomenon? Or is it just that us mostly-European-language-speaking<br>typologists don't know enough about the relevant facts in other parts of the<br>world?<br><br>David<br> <br></blockquote>A possible non-Western example is the loveable loser hero of Japanese<br>
comedy movies Tora-san, which could be translated as "Mr Tiger" - probably<br>the animal he least resembles (and written with the correct character 寅 -<br>though this means the Chinese zodiacal beast, rather than the actual<br>
animal).<br>See, for more details of this antihero,<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otoko_wa_Tsurai_yo" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otoko_wa_Tsurai_yo</a><br><br>More generally, in terms of antonymic nicknames in non-Western traditions,<br>
one thinks of the bizarre nature of Nahuatl honorifics, which seem to be<br>largely drawn from hypocoristics (e.g. the suffix -tzin in Malintzin,<br>'Malinche', Cortes's interpreter. This phenomenon (and its possible converse<br>
- honorifics used as insults) are discussed very briefly in my book, Empires<br>of the Word (HarperCollins 2005) pp. 15-16, referring to the learned<br>discussion by Frances Karttunen 1990 - Conventions of Polite Speech in<br>
Nahuatl, Estudios de Cultura Nahuatl, 20: pp. 281-96.<br><br>--<br>Nicholas Ostler<br>Chairman, Foundation for Endangered Languages<br><a href="http://www.ogmios.org/" target="_blank">www.ogmios.org</a><br><a href="mailto:nostler@chibcha.demon.co.uk" target="_blank">nostler@chibcha.demon.co.uk</a><br>
<br></blockquote></blockquote><br><br><br> <br></blockquote><br><br>-- <br></div></div>
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<div class="h5">David Gil<br><br>Department of Linguistics<br>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany<br><br>Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550119<br>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@eva.mpg.de</a><br>
Webpage: <a href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/" target="_blank">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a><br><br><br></div></div></blockquote></div>