<div>True, of course, "v ego lice" is better and much more common. My bad.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Anna</div>
<div><br><br> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Marina Chumakina <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:M.Tchoumakina@surrey.ac.uk">M.Tchoumakina@surrey.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I would say Russian </span></font><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">“v nem my poterjali...” (in him we lost) is extremely rare, much more frequent is highly idiomatic “v ego lice my poterjali” (in his face we lost...)</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If Google is anything to go by: </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang="RU">в нем мы потеряли</span></font><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> (v nem my poterjali...) – 6 times </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang="RU">в его лице мы потеряли</span></font><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang="RU"> </span></font><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">(v ego lice my poterjali</span></font><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang="RU">...</span></font><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">)</span></font><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> – 16,600 times. </span></font></p>
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<div class="im">-----Original Message-----<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> Discussion List for ALT [mailto:<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>] <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Wolfgang Schulze<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:01 AM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br>
</div><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> German MIT</span></font>
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<div class="h5">
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang="EN-US">Dear friends,<br>during a lecture on German syntax, we came across the following problem: German makes use of a topic (?) construction that goes this way:<br>
<br><b><i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mit ihm </span></i></b><i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">haben wir ein-en Freund verloren.<br></span></i>with he:DAT have:PRES:1PL we INDEF-MASC:ACC friend lose:PPP<br>
<br>I have difficulties to translate this into good English (my fault, sorry!): The meaning of the <i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">mit-</span></i>NP is not instrumental or comitative, but 'identifying' or 'explicative' ('in terms of', or so), that is (here:) the anaphor is correferential with <i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">Freund </span></i>(a paraphrase would perhaps be: 'We have lost him in terms of ~ being ~ as a friend'). This pattern also works with names or (less obvious) with ordinary nouns, such as:<br>
<br><b><i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mit Eva</span></i></b><i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic"> haben wir eine Freundin verloren.<br></span></i>'We have lost Eva in terms of a friend' (or so). <br>
<br><b><i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mit der Feldforschung </span></i></b><i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">ist der erste Schritt gemacht.<br></span></i>'The first step has been taken in terms of fieldfwork' (or so).<br>
<br>This construction seems to be dependent from placing the<i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic"> mit-</span></i>NP into the preverbal topic field, compare:<br><br><b><i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Mit Paul </span></i></b><i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">verließ uns ein Freund.<br>
</span></i>Paul left us in terms of a friend (or so)'. <br><br>But (comitative reading):<br><br><i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">Ein Freund verließ uns <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">mit Paul</span></b><br></span></i>A friend left us (together) with Paul.' <br>
<br>Interestingly enough, the <i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">mit-</span></i>construction at issue shows an ergative distribution (S=O;A): As a far as I can see, we can use this 'identifying' strategy with NPs in S or O function only, but not in A function, compare:<br>
<br><i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">Mit ihr starb</span></i> [<i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">eine gute Freundin</span></i>]:<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">S</span></b><br>She died being a good friend (or so).<br>
<i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><br>Mit ihr verlor ich</span></i> [<i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">eine gute Freund</span></i>]:<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">O</span></b><br>I have lost a good friend in terms of her (or so).'<br>
<br>But not:<br><br>*<i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">Mit ihm verlor</span></i> [<i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">der Mann</span></i>]:<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">A</span></b> <i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">seine Ehre</span></i>.<br>
with he:DAT lose:PAST:3SG DEF:MASC:NOM Mann his-FEM:ACC honor<br><br>My question now is whether some of you know about analogous constructions in other languages, and, if yes, which strategies are applied (including a possible constraint regarding accusativity/ergativity) . In German, the pattern seems to based on the extreme polysemy of the preposition <i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">mit</span></i>, covering (among many others) a true instrumental, a comitative, and some kind of 'equipment' function. This equipment function (that is a comitative-like function used with non-animates) seems to be a possible candidate for the development of the above-mentioned 'explicative' pattern, even though it strongly favors animate NPs. I also have the impression that the referent in the <i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">mit</span></i>-NP stands in a meronymic relation with the 'correferential' expression in the second NP, but I'm not fully sure about that.<br>
<br>Finally, I would be happy if you know of a better and more precise term for the function at issue. <br><br>Many thanks in advance for sharing with me your expertise and best wishes,<br>Wolfgang<br><br></span></font></p>
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<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="3" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang="EN-US">-- <br><br></span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="#c00000" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="COLOR: #c00000; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold" lang="EN-US">Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Schulze </span></font></b><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p>
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<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><i><font color="red" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic; COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Primary contact: </span></font></i><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Institut für Allgemeine & Typologische Sprachwissenschaft </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Dept. II / F 13 </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Ludwigstraße 25 </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="red" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Postanschrift / Postal address:</span></font><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US"> Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1</span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">D-80539 München </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Tel.: 0049-(0)89-2180-2486 (Secretary) </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US"> 0049-(0)89-2180-5343 (Office) </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="FR">Fax: 0049-(0)89-2180-16567 // 0049-(0)89-2180-5345 </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="FR">Email: </span></font><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de" target="_blank"><span lang="FR">W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de</span></a></span></font><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="FR"> /// </span></font><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de" target="_blank"><span lang="FR">Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de</span></a></span></font><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="FR"> </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Web: <a href="http://www.ats.uni-muenchen.de/personen/professoren/schulze/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.ats.uni-muenchen.de/personen/professoren/schulze/index.html</a></span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.wolfgangschulze.in-devir.com/" target="_blank">http://www.wolfgangschulze.in-devir.com</a> </span></font></p>
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<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><i><font color="red" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic; COLOR: red; FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Second contact: </span></font></i><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Katedra Germanistiký </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Fakulta humanitných vied </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Univerzita Mateja Béla / Banská Bystrica </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Tajovského 40 </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">SK-97401 Banská Bystrica </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Tel: (00421)-(0)48-4465108 </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Fax: (00421)-(0)48-4465512 </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Email: <a href="mailto:Schulze@fhv.umb.sk" target="_blank">Schulze@fhv.umb.sk</a> </span></font></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US">Web: <a href="http://www.fhv.umb.sk/app/user.php?user=schulze" target="_blank">http://www.fhv.umb.sk/app/user.php?user=schulze</a> </span></font></p>
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<p style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000099" size="1" face="Calibri"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></font></p></div></div></div></p></div></div></blockquote></div><br>