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Dear friends,<br>
let me briefly summarize the second set of answers to and comments on
my original post concerning the German <i>mit</i>-construction (sorry
if I have forgotten to mention someone! [I do not include mails that
had been sent to me in privacy]):<br>
<br>
To the set of language data given in my first summary, we can now add
(an updated version of the earlier list):<br>
<br>
<b>German: </b> <b>Preposition<i> mit (~ in)<br>
</i>My earlier comments: </b>The two concepts
addressed (WITH and IN) are based on somehow different patterns: "IN
someone we see (a) friend" (the Russian model в нем мы потеряли друга)
reads as if 'friend' is some kind of trajector related to the
landmark 'he' (~ 'his/her face/person etc..', to
take up the second variant). The WITH-construction, however, seems to
have a stronger notion of meronymy or 'equipment', as I hypothesized
earlier. Maybe that all this also depends from the semantics of the
verb, compare again:<font face="Calibri"><i><br>
</i></font><i> In ihm sehe ich einen guten Freund</i>.
[lit.: in him see I a good
friend]<br>
<i> Mit ihm schlage ich einen Freund</i> [lit.: with
him hit I a good
friend"<br>
<br>
But<br>
<i> *In ihm schlage ich einen Freund</i> [lit.: In
him hit I a good
friend]<br>
<i> *?mit ihm sehe ich einen Freund</i> [lit.: with
him see I a good
friend] compare again German:<br>
<br>
<b>Let me add: </b>Also note that in 'my German',
positional variation seems to affect the WITH construction only, not
the IN-construction:<br>
<i>Ich sehe eine Freund in ihm </i>[I see a firend
in him]<br>
But<br>
<i> Ich schlage einen Freund mit ihm</i> [I hit a
firend with him] (only possible if WITH is truly instrumental and <i>ihm</i>
cross-referencing a non-animate (or non-human) referent.<br>
<b><i><br>
</i></b><b>French: </b> <b>Preposition <i>avec</i></b> (Denis
Creissels)<br>
<b>Dutch: </b> <b>Preposition <i>met</i></b> (?, no example)
(Pieter Muysken)<br>
Martine Bruikl adds: <br>
"* Focus: <i>In hem zie ik een goede vriend / Neutral:
Ik zie in hem een goede vriend</i>. (Funny without goede).<br>
*?<i>Met hem sla ik een goede vriend.</i><br>
*<i>We hebben met hem een goede vriend verloren.</i>
(Also good without goede)<br>
*?<i>We hebben in Eva een goede vriendin verloren</i>.
(Funny with in)<br>
*<i>Met hem verliet ons een goede vriend</i>. (In my
opininion also correct without goede).<br>
*<i>Met AZ heeft Ajax de landskampioen verslagen</i>.<br>
*<i>Met Milosovic heeft Interpol een belangrijke
crimineel opgepakt</i>."<br>
Dik Bakker adds:<br>
"Dutch also uses 'in' next to 'with', possibly related
to the semantics of the main verb:<br>
<i>met haar hebben we een groot leider verloren<br>
</i>with her have we a great leader lost<br>
But:<br>
<i>in haar hebben/bezitten we een groot leider<br>
</i>in her have/possess we a great leader<br>
<b>Russian:</b> <b>Preposition</b><i><b> v </b></i>'in' (Anna
Filippova, Ilja Serzants) ~<b><i> v ego lice</i></b> (Marina
Tchoumakina)<br>
<b>Italian: Preposition</b> <b><i>con ~ in</i></b> (Paolo Ramat,
Raffaele Simone)<br>
Syliva Luraghi adds: "There seems to be a different
distribution of 'in' and 'con' in Italian: for example one can say
"d'Alfredo il padre in me vedete" (from the libretto of La Traviata,
"You are looking at Alfredo's father" lit.: "in me you see Alfredo's
father"), but you couldn't say the same using 'con'."<br>
<b>Hebrew: Preposition <i>b-</i></b> (covering IN and
WITH(explicative)) (David Gil)<br>
Moshe Taube adds:<br>
"Job. 12:2 אָמְנָם כִּי אַתֶּם־עָם וְ<b>עִמָּכֶם </b>תָּמוּת
חָכְמָה׃<br>
LXX: εἶτα ὑμεῖς ἐστε ἄνθρωποι ἦ <b>μεθ' ὑμῶ</b>ν
τελευτήσει σοφία<br>
Vulgate: ergo vos estis soli homines et <i>vobiscum </i>morietur
sapientia<br>
Luther: Ja, ihr seid die Leute, mit euch wird die
Weisheit sterben!<br>
King James: No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom
shall die with you."<br>
But David Gil is probably right when saying:<br>
<i> </i>"<i>I think this is not the same construction.
In the Biblical example,<br>
"wisdom" is not *explicative* or *identificational* with
respect to<br>
"you" the way it is in the originally defined
construction. Rather,<br>
the preposition "with", or Hebrew ʕim, is used in a more
or less<br>
literal comitative sense."<br>
</i> <b>My comment:;</b> I guess this holds for the
corresponding translations, too.<br>
<b>Latin: </b> <i><b>qualis</b></i> N:NOM (qualis artifex pereo)
(Paul Hopper)<br>
<b>My comment:</b> Isn't this rather a mirative
construction? <br>
<b>Icelandic: Preposition<i> meğ </i></b>(Jóhanna Barddal) <br>
Jóhanna gives the following examples and comments:<br>
<i> <br>
Meğ Páli höfum viğ svo sannarlega misst góğan vin.<br>
</i> with paul have we so truly lost good friend<br>
<br>
In fact, all the examples suggested so far this morning
are ok in Icelandic, even the last two:<br>
<br>
<i> Viğ höfum meğ Evu misst sanna vinkonu.<br>
</i> we have with Eva lost true friend.<br>
<i> Okkur yfirgaf meğ Páli mjög góğur vinur.<br>
</i> us left with Paul very good friend<br>
<br>
This last sentence would be better without the
topicalization, as topicalizations are restricted in Icelandic.<br>
I would certainly also use the label 'explicative' for
examples of the following kind:<br>
<br>
<i> Meğ şessu yfirgaf hann veisluna.<br>
</i> with this left he party-the<br>
<br>
where 'with this' can refer to whatever event referred
to in the preceding discourse. The same goes for the following example:<br>
<br>
<i> Meğ şessu sendum viğ hana heim.<br>
</i> with this sent we her home<br>
<br>
So Icelandic does not require an animate 'explicative'
NP, nor that the subject is not A.<br>
<b>English: Preposition<i> in</i></b> (<i>In him, we lost a great
leader</i>) (Elena Bashir)<br>
<br>
Finally, David Gil points out:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">My gut feeling (though this is something that
should and probably could be tested) is that this is a relatively
recent calquing on some European language.
<br>
</blockquote>
Yes, I think so, too. But when and where? Any idea? And what was the
original model (which language)?<br>
<blockquote type="cite">A more general gut feeling that I also have is
that this construction is limited, in the languages that have it, to a
rather formal register, and that various stylistic conventions and
specific constructions associated with such registers may spread across
languages faster and further than other conventions and constructions
that are limited to more colloquial registers.</blockquote>
I'm not sure about that, especially if you look at e.g. recent German
borrowings from English. But David is surely right concerning the
register associated with the WITH(explicative)-construction. At least
in German, it is rather formal, but present in e.g. newspapers (comapre
my quote <i>Mit Peter Paul Michalski geht der Polizei in
Nordrhein-Westfalen jetzt auch der zweite Schwerverbrecher ins Netz </i>which
is taken from a newspaper. I even heard it being used in TV shows, such
as:<br>
<br>
<i>Mit Herrn XY hatten wir den ersten Millionär der Sendung <br>
</i>with Mr. XY had we the first millionaire of=the show <br>
<br>
Well, that's all for the moment. Hoping that this brief update is of
some help,<br>
very best wishes,<br>
Wolfgang<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="EN-US">-- <br>
</span><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(23, 54, 93);"
lang="EN-US">Prof. Dr.
Wolfgang
Schulze
</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">----------------------------------------------------------
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><i><span
style="font-size: 8pt; color: red;" lang="EN-US">Primary contact:
</span></i><span style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;">Institut für Allgemeine & Typologische
Sprachwissenschaft
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
class="SpellE"><span style="font-size: 8pt;">Dept</span></span><span
style="font-size: 8pt;">. II / F 13
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;">Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität
München
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;">Ludwigstraße
25
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt; color: red;">Postanschrift / <span
class="SpellE">Postal</span> <span class="SpellE">address</span>:</span><span
style="font-size: 8pt;"> Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">D-80539 <span class="SpellE">München</span>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">Tel.: 0049-(0)89-2180-2486
(Secretary)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">
0049-(0)89-2180-5343
(Office)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">Fax: 0049-(0)89-2180-16567 //
0049-(0)89-2180-5345
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">Email: <a
href="mailto:W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de">W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de</a> ///
<a href="mailto:Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de">Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">Web: <a
href="http://www.ats.uni-muenchen.de/personen/professoren/schulze/index.html">http://www.ats.uni-muenchen.de/personen/professoren/schulze/index.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US"><a
href="http://www.wolfgangschulze.in-devir.com">http://www.wolfgangschulze.in-devir.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">----------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><i><span
style="font-size: 8pt; color: red;" lang="EN-US">Second
contact:
</span></i><span style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
class="SpellE"><span style="font-size: 8pt;">Katedra</span></span><span
style="font-size: 8pt;"> <span class="SpellE">Germanistikı</span>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
class="SpellE"><span style="font-size: 8pt;">Fakulta</span></span><span
style="font-size: 8pt;"> <span class="SpellE">humanitnıch</span>
vied
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
class="SpellE"><span style="font-size: 8pt;">Univerzita</span></span><span
style="font-size: 8pt;"> <span class="SpellE">Mateja</span>
Béla / <span class="SpellE">Banská</span> <span class="SpellE">Bystrica</span>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
class="SpellE"><span style="font-size: 8pt;">Tajovského</span></span><span
style="font-size: 8pt;">
40
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">SK-97401 <span class="SpellE">Banská</span>
Bystrica
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">Tel:
(00421)-(0)48-4465108
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">Fax: (00421)-(0)48-4465512
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">Email: <a
href="mailto:Schulze@fhv.umb.sk">Schulze@fhv.umb.sk</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">Web: <a
href="http://www.fhv.umb.sk/app/user.php?user=schulze">http://www.fhv.umb.sk/app/user.php?user=schulze</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; line-height: normal;"><span
style="font-size: 8pt;" lang="EN-US">----------------------------------------------------------</span><span
style="font-size: 8pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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