<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>I agree with what others have said. Pike treated tones similarly to other segments and was a pioneer in this (though he did refer to "tonemes"). </div><div><br></div><div>I have said on occasion that Piraha has 11 phonemes for men and 10 for women. But it also has two tones so, unless I use Pike's terminology, it has 13/12 phonemes. Guess we should be consistent. </div><div><br></div><div>Dan<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On 1 Jun 2011, at 14:44, "Peter Bakker" <<a href="mailto:linpb@HUM.AU.DK">linpb@HUM.AU.DK</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;"><b>Don Killian <<a href="mailto:donald.killian@HELSINKI.FI"><a href="mailto:donald.killian@HELSINKI.FI">donald.killian@HELSINKI.FI</a></a>> writes:</b></font></div>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">Dear Don Killian, </font></div>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">I agree that it is not fair that tones are not included in phoneme inventories.</font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">On the other hand, tone is only one of a set of properties that vowels can have (and </font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">sometimes consonants as well). Often in segmental inventories only the points of articulation</font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">are given, whereas tone, length, glottalization and "breathyness" vs. plain (and this is </font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">not an exhaustive list of ways in which vowels with the same place of articulation can be modified) </font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">may increase the number of vocalic contrasts enormously, especially when several of these </font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">can be used with the "same" vowel. If one only adds tone to segmental inventories (as Atkinson did),</font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">one does not grab all possible contrasts that change the meaning of words.</font></div>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">Peter Bakker</font></div>
<br>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">Dear typologists,</font></span></div>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">I apologize for the potentially controversial email, but I was wondering </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">one thing about the recent arguments with phoneme inventory sizes, and </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">would like some thoughts.</font></span></div>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">Many of the arguments lately have been based off of databases such as </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">WALS or UPSID, which mention inventory sizes of consonants and vowels. </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">However, databases which include tones in phoneme inventories are </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">lacking, and I really am wondering how much this is affecting these </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">arguments. My current thought is that almost every single study which </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">has ignored tones in phoneme inventory questions has flawed enough </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">methodology that the conclusions are invalid, irrelevant of whether they </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">end up being true or not.</font></span></div>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">Why are tones rarely included anywhere, neither in phoneme databases nor </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">arguments? I can't imagine almost any modern linguist would argue that </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">they are insignificant, but I also find that simply not mentioning tone </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">at all, or the fact that the databases are heavily biased in favor of </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">non-tonal languages, somewhat frustrating. If ka and ke are significant, </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">why not ká and kà? Adding tones to inventory sizes would radically </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">change the number of phonemes in quite many languages.</font></span></div>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">I sent an email to Søren about his own article in particular, but I'd </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">love to hear other comments or responses.</font></span></div>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">Best Regards,</font></span></div>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">Don</font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">-- </font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">Don Killian</font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">Researcher in African Linguistics</font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">Department of Modern Languages</font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">PL 24 (Unioninkatu 40)</font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">FI-00014 University of Helsinki</font></span></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><span style="background-color:#d0d0d0;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">+358 (0)44 5016437</font></span></div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">Peter Bakker email: <a href="mailto:linpb@hum.au.dk"><a href="mailto:linpb@hum.au.dk">linpb@hum.au.dk</a></a></font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">Department of Linguistics tel. (45) 8942.6553</font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">Inst. for Anthropology, Archaeology and Linguistics </font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">Aarhus University tel. institute: (0045)8942.6562 </font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">Nordre Ringgade, buiding 1410 fax institute: (0045)8942.6570</font></div>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">DK - 8000 Aarhus C room 340 </font></div>
<br>
<div align="left" style="text-align:left;"><font face="Arial" size="+0" color="#000000" style="font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;">home page: <a href="http://person.au.dk/en/linpb@hum.au.dk" target="_blank"><a href="http://person.au.dk/en/linpb@hum.au.dk">http://person.au.dk/en/linpb@hum.au.dk</a></a> </font></div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></blockquote></body></html>