<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Dear Wolfgang & others,</div><div><br></div>As for Estonian, the Finnic passive marker really is a combination of causative TTA and reflexive SEN (with a slot between these for tense or mood markers), the latter of which can be left out in some forms such as the connegative ones (which leads to homonymy as in Estonian <i>ei soovi-ta </i>NEG wish-TTA ‘does not recommend’ ~ ‘is not wished’). Structurally similar is the (fairly obsolete) Hungarian passive, consisting of causative (T)AT and reflexive/intransitive IK, as in <i>használ-tat-ik </i>‘is used’. So, the motivation is (to use the example from Tapani Lehtinen's (1982) standard work on the Finnic passive): ‘has himself killed' > ‘gets killed, is killed’.<div><br></div><div>Best</div><div>JL<br><div><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>--</div><div>Univ.Prof. Dr. Johanna Laakso</div><div>Universität Wien, Institut für Europäische und Vergleichende Sprach- und Literaturwissenschaft (EVSL)</div><div>Abteilung Finno-Ugristik</div><div>Campus AAKH Spitalgasse 2-4 Hof 7</div><div>A-1090 Wien</div><div><a href="mailto:johanna.laakso@univie.ac.at">johanna.laakso@univie.ac.at</a> • <a href="http://homepage.univie.ac.at/Johanna.Laakso/">http://homepage.univie.ac.at/Johanna.Laakso/</a></div><div>Project ELDIA: <a href="http://www.eldia-project.org/">http://www.eldia-project.org/</a> </div><div><br></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>Wolfgang Schulze kirjoitti 16.9.2011 kello 13.24:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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Dear friends,<br>
I'm currently working on instances of passive/causative homonymy.
Let me just give two examples from Manchu (Tungus) to illustrate the
problem:<br>
<br>
Passive:<br>
<i>tere inenggi mi-ni jakûn morin
hûlha-<b>bu</b>-fi</i><br>
that day 1SG-GEN eight horse:NOM
steal-<b>PASS</b>-PFV:CNV<br>
'On that day my eight horses were stolen (by bandits).'<br>
<br>
Causative:<br>
<i>bi morin be ule-<b>bu</b>-me</i><br>
1SG:NOM horse ACC drink-<b>CAUS</b>-IPFV:CNV<br>
'I let the horse drink (water).'<br>
<br>
For <i>-bu-</i> marking the causative we might think of the verb <i>bu-</i>
'give' as a potential source of grammaticalization. However, it is
far from being clear whether the same <i>-bu-</i> is present in the
passive form. Usually, <i>-bu-</i> is said to represent a
homonymous pair, not an instance of polysemy. However note that in
some other Tungus languages, the formal merger of passive and
causative may show up, too (apart from another, specialized passive
morpheme). Similar instances occur in Korean (e.g. c<i>ap-hita</i>
'let/have catch, be caught', <i>mul-lita</i> 'have/let bite, be
bitten' etc.). Again, grammars normally speak of secondary homonymy
due to specific sound processes. Nevertheless, I'm not sure whether
the parallel between (Southern) Tungus and Korean is mere
coincidence (given the fact that the languages at issue are spoken
in relative neighborhood). However, before trying to provide an
explanation based on the assumption of the presence of polysemy
(that would be rather complex in nature - I do not want to bother
you with this here), I would be eager to learn whether there are
other languages that exhibit the same type of homonymy, that is a
single (!) strategy (morphological or analytic) to encode passives
and causatives. Likewise, I'm totally ignorant whether this
phenomenon has already been discussed in the literature (my fault, I
admit!). So, I would be extremely thankful, if you could tell me
about helpful references and whether there are other languages that
show analogous strategies. Maybe Estonian is another candidate, cf.
<i>soovi-ta </i>'be wished' ~ '*have something being wished' ~
'*have s.o. wish' > 'recommend', but I'm not sure whether I have
got these data right. <br>
<br>
Very best wishes,<br>
Wolfgang <br>
<br>
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margin-top:0cm;
margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0cm;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;
mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
mso-themecolor:followedhyperlink;
text-decoration:underline;
text-underline:single;}
span.SpellE
{mso-style-name:"";
mso-spl-e:yes;}
span.GramE
{mso-style-name:"";
mso-gram-e:yes;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
mso-default-props:yes;
font-size:10.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;
mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}
@page WordSection1
{size:595.3pt 841.9pt;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 2.0cm 70.85pt;
mso-header-margin:35.4pt;
mso-footer-margin:35.4pt;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
-->
</style><!--[if gte mso 10]>
<style>
/* Style Definitions */
table.MsoNormalTable
{mso-style-name:"Normale Tabelle";
mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;
mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-parent:"";
mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt;
mso-para-margin:0cm;
mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;
mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;
mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}
</style>
<![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/>
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
DE" lang="EN-US">----------------------------------------------------------</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
DE" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><b><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
DE" lang="EN-US">Prof. Dr. Wolfgang
Schulze </span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
DE" lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
DE" lang="EN-US">----------------------------------------------------------
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
DE" lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">Institut für Allgemeine
& Typologische Sprachwissenschaft <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span class="SpellE"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:
"Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language: DE">Dept</span></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family: "Times
New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language: DE">. II / F 13
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität
München
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">Ludwigstraße
25
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">D-80539
München
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">Tel.:
0049-(0)89-2180-2486
(Secretary)
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE"> </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
DE" lang="EN-US">0049-(0)89-2180-5343
(Office) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:FR;mso-fareast-language: DE" lang="FR">Fax:<span class="GramE"> 0049</span>-(0)89-2180-5345
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:FR;mso-fareast-language: DE" lang="FR">Email: </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE"><a href="mailto:W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de"><span style="mso-ansi-language: FR" lang="FR">W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de</span></a></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:FR;mso-fareast-language:DE" lang="FR"> /// </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE"><a href="mailto:Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de"><span style="mso-ansi-language: FR" lang="FR">Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de</span></a></span><span style="font-size: 8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman"; mso-ansi-language:FR;mso-fareast-language:DE" lang="FR"> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
DE" lang="EN-US">Web: <a href="http://www.ats.lmu.de/index.html">http://www.ats.lmu.de/index.html</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
DE" lang="EN-US">Personal homepage: <a href="http://www.wolfgangschulze.in-devir.com/">http://www.wolfgangschulze.in-devir.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">----------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;mso-bidi-font-family:
Arial;color:#4D4D4D">Diese e-Mail kann vertrauliche und/oder
rechtlich geschützte Informationen enthalten. Wenn Sie nicht
der richtige Adressat sind bzw. diese e-Mail irrtümlich
erhalten haben, informieren Sie bitte umgehend den Absender
und vernichten Sie diese e-Mail. Das unerlaubte Kopieren
sowie das unbefugte Verwenden und Weitergeben vertraulicher
e-Mails oder etwaiger, mit solchen e-Mails verbundener
Anhänge im Ganzen oder in Teilen ist nicht gestattet. Ferner
wird die Haftung für jeglichen Verlust oder Schaden,
insbesondere durch virenbefallene e-Mails ausgeschlossen. </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>