<html>
<body>
Dear Wolfgang,<br>
the Italian causative with 'fare' works in very much the same way as the
Turkish causative described by Geoffrey. Look at the following sentence
regarding a soccer match:<br><br>
ha commesso un errore
incredibile: si
e' fatto
rubare la
palla e la Germania ha pareggiato. <br>
he-has committed a mistake
terrible refl he-is made
steale(INF) the ball and the Germany has drawn<br>
"he did a terrible mistake: he had the ball taken away and Germany
drew the match"<br><br>
The two Manchu sentences you quote would sound like this in
Italian<br><br>
'On that day my eight horses were stolen (by bandits).' = Quel giorno mi
(refl.1sg) sono fatto (caus) rubare otto cavalli (dai banditi)<br><br>
'I let the horse drink (water).' = Ho fatto (caus) bere il cavallo'.<br>
(auxiliary change depends on the occurrence/non occurrence of a
reflexive)<br><br>
Note further that the reflexive particles 'si' and 'mi in the Italian
sentences are also used in external possession constructions.<br><br>
Best wishes<br>
Silvia<br><br>
At 16.13 16/09/2011, you wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Dear Wolfgang,<br><br>
It may be worth looking a little more closely the semantics of the
‘causatives’ you are investigating. Some causatives are open to a
‘let, allow’ interpretation, while others only permit the
cause/coercion interpretation. In the former case, “causers” can end
up looking rather ‘unagentive’, and the distance to a passive may not
be as far as it would appear at first glance. <br><br>
Turkish is a case in point: the causative morpheme (with various
allomorphs, some irregular) is open to both ‘cause’, but also to
‘let happen, be unable to prevent’ readings. Thus the causative verb
kaç-ır-mak (go away-caus-inf) can mean both ‘kidnap, abduct (a
person)’, or ‘miss (an opportunity, a train etc.)’.<br>
<br>
The following example (from Göksel and Kerslake’s grammar (p.147), I
have added glosses) is quite similar semantically to your passive example
with the ‘bandits’:<br><br>
<br>
Sule el-i-ni makina-ya kap-tır-dı<br>
Shule hand-poss3s-acc maschine-dat catch-caus-pst(3s)<br><br>
'Shule got her hand caught in the machine'<br><br>
Of course here, the possessor of the affected entity here winds up as
the subject, while in your passive example it’s a genitive attribute.
But the semantic overlaps seem worthy of following up.<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
Geoff<br><br>
Am 16.09.2011 13:24, schrieb Wolfgang Schulze: <br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Dear friends,<br>
I'm currently working on instances of passive/causative homonymy. Let me
just give two examples from Manchu (Tungus) to illustrate the
problem:<br><br>
Passive:<br>
<i>tere inenggi mi-ni
jakûn morin
hûlha-<b>bu</b>-fi</i><br>
that day
1SG-GEN eight horse:NOM
steal-<b>PASS</b>-PFV:CNV<br>
'On that day my eight horses were stolen (by bandits).'<br><br>
Causative:<br>
<i>bi morin be
ule-<b>bu</b>-me</i><br>
1SG:NOM horse ACC
drink-<b>CAUS</b>-IPFV:CNV<br>
'I let the horse drink (water).'<br><br>
For <i>-bu-</i> marking the causative we might think of the verb
<i>bu-</i> 'give' as a potential source of grammaticalization. However,
it is far from being clear whether the same <i>-bu-</i> is present in the
passive form. Usually, <i>-bu-</i> is said to represent a
homonymous pair, not an instance of polysemy. However note that in some
other Tungus languages, the formal merger of passive and causative may
show up, too (apart from another, specialized passive morpheme). Similar
instances occur in Korean (e.g. c<i>ap-hita</i> 'let/have catch,
be caught', <i>mul-lita</i> 'have/let bite, be bitten' etc.). Again,
grammars normally speak of secondary homonymy due to specific sound
processes. Nevertheless, I'm not sure whether the parallel between
(Southern) Tungus and Korean is mere coincidence (given the fact that the
languages at issue are spoken in relative neighborhood). However, before
trying to provide an explanation based on the assumption of the presence
of polysemy (that would be rather complex in nature - I do not want to
bother you with this here), I would be eager to learn whether there are
other languages that exhibit the same type of homonymy, that is a single
(!) strategy (morphological or analytic) to encode passives and
causatives. Likewise, I'm totally ignorant whether this phenomenon has
already been discussed in the literature (my fault, I admit!). So, I
would be extremely thankful, if you could tell me about helpful
references and whether there are other languages that show
analogous strategies. Maybe Estonian is another candidate, cf.
<i>soovi-ta </i>'be wished' ~ '*have something being wished' ~ '*have
s.o. wish' > 'recommend', but I'm not sure whether I have got these
data right. <br>
<br>
Very best wishes,<br>
Wolfgang <br><br>
-- <br><br>
----------------------------------------------------------<br><br>
<b>Prof. Dr. Wolfgang Schulze
</b>
<br><br>
---------------------------------------------------------- <br><br>
Institut für Allgemeine & Typologische Sprachwissenschaft
<br><br>
Dept. II / F 13
<br><br>
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München
<br><br>
Ludwigstraße 25
<br><br>
D-80539 München
<br><br>
Tel.: 0049-(0)89-2180-2486 (Secretary)
<br><br>
0049-(0)89-2180-5343 (Office)
<br><br>
Fax: 0049-(0)89-2180-5345
<br><br>
Email:
<a href="mailto:W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de">
W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de</a> ///
<a href="mailto:Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de">Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de</a>
<br><br>
Web:
<a href="http://www.ats.lmu.de/index.html">
http://www.ats.lmu.de/index.html</a> <br><br>
Personal homepage:
<a href="http://www.wolfgangschulze.in-devir.com">
http://www.wolfgangschulze.in-devir.com</a><br><br>
----------------------------------------------------------<br><br>
Diese e-Mail kann vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich geschützte
Informationen enthalten. Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind bzw.
diese e-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, informieren Sie bitte umgehend
den Absender und vernichten Sie diese e-Mail. Das unerlaubte Kopieren
sowie das unbefugte Verwenden und Weitergeben vertraulicher e-Mails oder
etwaiger, mit solchen e-Mails verbundener Anhänge im Ganzen oder in
Teilen ist nicht gestattet. Ferner wird die Haftung für jeglichen
Verlust oder Schaden, insbesondere durch virenbefallene e-Mails
ausgeschlossen. </blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Silvia Luraghi<br>
Dipartimento di Linguistica Teorica e Applicata<br>
Universit di Pavia<br>
Strada Nuova 65<br>
I-27100 Pavia<br>
telef.: +39-0382-984685<br>
fax: +39-0382-984487<br>
silvia.luraghi@unipv.it<br>
<a href="http://lettere.unipv.it/diplinguistica/docenti.php?&id=68" eudora="autourl">
http://lettere.unipv.it/diplinguistica/docenti.php?&id=68</a></body>
</html>