<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear all,<div><br></div><div>In keeping with the remark of Östen Dahl and Matthew Dryer this morning, French has a large bunch of diminutives which convey only a small size meaning e.g. <i>plac-ette</i> 'square-DIM', <i>balis-ette</i> 'beacon-DIM', <i>potel-et</i> 'post-DIM', <i>brochur-ette</i> 'brochure-DIM', <i>bastid-ette</i> 'walled_town-DIM', etc. A detailed account of diminutive in French is proposed in the reference below, where most of the issues hinted at in the present discussion have been addressed. </div><div><br></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36px; text-indent: -36px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Fradin Bernard & Fabio Montermini. 2009. "La morphologie évaluative". In <i>Aperçus de morphologie du français</i>, Fradin B., F. Kerleroux & M. Plénat (eds). 231-266. Saint-Denis: Presses Universitaires de Vincennes.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Bernard Fradin</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>Le 4 mars 2013 à 17:37, Paolo Ramat a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Once the diminutive form has become an independent,autonomous word, you can get both in German and Italian enhancing NPs such as "the political situation is *un gran casino*" (meaning a big confusion [+]) and you can eat *un paninone* (a big/large panino) with the superlative suff. -one, or drink "ein großes Schlückchen" .<br><br>Best<br><br>[+] nowadays the meaning of _casino_ is 'confusion'; cp. Fr. _bordel_<br><br>..................................................<br>Prof.Paolo Ramat<br>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS )<br>Direttore del Centro "Lingue d'Europa: tipologia, storia e sociolinguistica" (LETiSS)<br>Palazzo del Broletto - Piazza della Vittoria<br><br>27100 Pavia<br><br>-----Messaggio originale----- From: Hartmut Haberland<br>Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 4:49 PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br>Subject: SV: Reduplication OR pure diminutives<br><br>There a a lot of examples in German, too:<br>Brot (bread) - Brötchen (bread roll)<br>Haus (house) - Häuschen (toilet)<br>Weib (wife) - Weibchen (female animal)<br>Mann (male human) - Männchen (male animal)<br>Frau (women) - Frauchen (female owner of a dog)<br>Herr (lord) - Herrchen (male owner of a dog)<br>Zapfen (tap) - Zäpfchen (uvula)<br>Stab (stave) - Stäbchen (chopstick)<br>Hut (hat) - Hütchen (several technical meanings, hat-like, small objects)<br>not to speak of words in -chen that have originated as diminutives, but where the simplex either is obsolete, obscure or not existent in contemporary German:<br>Mädchen (girl), Märchen (fairy tale), Frettchen (ferret), Kaninchen (rabbit), Eichhörnchen (squirrel, folk etymology from French écureuil), Ohrläppchen (earlobe).<br>Also Italian zucca (pumpkin) - zucchino (squash) (same Greek kolokíthi - kolokitháki).<br>Hartmut Haberland<br><br>-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----<br>Fra: Discussion List for ALT [mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] På vegne af Nigel Vincent<br>Sendt: 4. marts 2013 15:24<br>Til: <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br>Emne: Re: Reduplication OR pure diminutives<br><br>Something else about Italian which shows that, as Giorgio suggests, the exact value can vary with each item is the way in Italian some of the diminutives have become independent lexical items - e.g. pane 'bread' vs panino 'bread roll' or with adjectives: caro 'dear (in both senses') and carino 'pretty'. Once lexicalised they can go off further in their own directions: e.g. casa 'house' vs casino 'brothel' (originally a house for a private gathering - which I suppose in a way a brothel still is!).<br>It would be interesting to know if there is a similar lexicalisation effect with the reduplicative type.<br>Nigel<br><br>Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA<br>Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics The University of Manchester<br><br>Vice-President for Research & HE Policy, The British Academy<br><br>Linguistics & English Language<br>School of Arts, Languages and Cultures<br>The University of Manchester<br>Manchester M13 9PL<br>UK<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.llc.manchester.ac.uk/subjects/lel/staff/nigel-vincent/">http://www.llc.manchester.ac.uk/subjects/lel/staff/nigel-vincent/</a><br><br>________________________________________<br>From: Discussion List for ALT [LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG]<br>Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 2:01 PM<br>To: LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG<br>Subject: Re: Reduplication OR pure diminutives<br><br>Dear colleagues,<br><br>Incidentally, the stol-ik 'small table' example is found also in Italian:<br><br>tavolo > tavol-ino 'small table'<br><br>Which refers only to size. Thus, as Francesca suggests, the exact connotation of diminutives may actually depend on the specific item involved.<br><br>Best,<br><br>Giorgio F. Arcodia<br><br>--<br>Dr. Giorgio Francesco Arcodia<br>Università degli Studi di Milano-Bicocca Dipartimento di Scienze Umane per la Formazione Edificio U6 - stanza 4101 Piazza dell'Ateneo Nuovo, 1<br>20126 Milano<br><br>Tel.: (+39) 02 6448 4946<br>Fax: (+39) 02 6448 4863<br>E-mail: giorgio.arcodia@unimib.it<br><br><br>On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:19:40 +0100<br>Francesca Di Garbo <francescadigarbo@GMAIL.COM> wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">Dear Hannu,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Thanks a lot for your clarification to my message. I actually didn't<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">mean to interpret Östen's example as if the Russian diminutive marker<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">encodes only small size in all its occurrences. I only meant to say<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">that it is cross-linguistically common for diminutive markers to encode<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">only size with certain nouns (as in the example quoted by Östen for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Russian). It seems to me that this may depend on the meaning of the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">noun to which the diminutive marker is attached, on the context of<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">occurrence, and on the presence of other diminutive markers in a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">language. I hope this sounds less ambiguous now.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Thanks again and best wishes,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Francesca<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On 2013-03-04 13:38, Hannu Tommola wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Dear Francesca and all,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">However, as Östen's example suggests, it happens that the use of a<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">diminutive marker gets restricted to the encoding of size variation<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">only.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I am afraid Östen didn't want to say that the diminutive _marker_ in<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Russian is restricted to refer only to size.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">He said "in Russian there are diminutives that seem fairly free of<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">evaluative or expressive meaning", and his example _stol-ik_ 'small<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">table' does not prove that the marker with other words refers to size.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Russ. _chashe-chka kofe/chaja/u_ doesn't necessarily refer to a small<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">cup but simply to 'a nice cup of coffee/tea'; an even more clear<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">example without any hint to small size is _kon'ja-chok_ 'cognac' or<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">any other uncountable noun.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Best,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Hannu<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Quoting Francesca Di Garbo <francescadigarbo@gmail.com>:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Dear Scott and dear All,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">As far as we now, the most common source of diminutive affixes<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">crosslinguistically is the noun for "child"<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">(Jurafsky 1996). This usually starts being used as a sort of<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">classificatory noun to refer to the young age of animate entities and<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">gets gradually extended to inanimate nouns where it marks small size<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">with countable nouns and small quantity with uncountable.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Interestingly, there is no evidence for affixal diminutives to derive<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">from modifiers meaning "small'. On the other hand, the diachronic<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">development of diminutive reduplication is very difficult to pin<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">down, considering its intertwinment with other grammatical functions<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">(plurality, distributivity, attenuation etc.). It would be<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">interesting to investigate if the notion of /fragmentation /used by<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Alex to make sense of the polysemy of reduplication in Mwotlap is<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">also applicable on the diachronic level. Also, it would be<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">interesting to see how common reduplicative patterns for diminutive<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">marking are across other Creoles (which I don't have any clue about).<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">As for the second point under discussion (whether on not diminutives<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">can express only size):<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Synchronically, diminutives express evaluation of quantity (SMALL)<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">and quality (BAD or GOOD) and, as Paul points out, the two components<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">are not easy to tell apart when analysing the semantics of a<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">diminutive affix.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">However, as Östen's example suggests, it happens that the use of a<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">diminutive marker gets restricted to the encoding of size variation<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">only. I have the impression that this is very likely to happen in<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">languages with several different diminutive (and possibly<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">augmentative) affixes, where the different markers show different<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">distributional properties in terms of the meanings encoded. The Bantu<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">languages are an excellent illustration in this respect as the<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">examples from Yeyi show. Bantu languages (and other Niger-Congo<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">languages with rich noun class systems as the Atlantic languages)<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">often have several noun classes which are used to encode evaluative<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">(diminutive and augmentative) meanings.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Interestingly, besides the range of uses pointed out by Frank with<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">respect to Yeyi, different diminutive classes in one language may<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">specialize in the encoding of different size nuances (small vs. tiny)<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">as in the example below from Lega, where class 12 expresses small<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">size and class 19 tiny size: <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><br></div></blockquote></div><br><div>
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"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; ">Telephone: (33) 1 57 27 57 84</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; 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"><div style="font-weight: normal; font-size: medium; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><div style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-style: normal; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><b>NOUVELLE ADRESSE COURRIEL<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>/ NEW EMAIL ADDRESS</b></span></div><div style="font-style: normal; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><b><br></b></span></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><a href="mailto:bernard.fradin@linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr">bernard.fradin@linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr</a></span></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><br></span></div>Adresse géographique / Physical address</span></div><div style="font-weight: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><i>Laboratoire de linguistique formelle</i></div><div style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Bureau 547</div><div style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Bâtiment Olympe de Gouges</div><div style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">rue Albert Eintstein</div><div style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">F-75013 PARIS</div><div style="font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">FRANCE</div><div style="font-style: normal; word-wrap: break-word; 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