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Dear all,<br>
just a brief comment (question): Wouldn't it make sense to test
whether a formal diminutive is semantically a diminutive by asking
whether the resulting term is incompatible with attributes of
largeness, bigness etc.? E.g. in (my) German, <i>ein größes
Schlückchen</i> ' (large sip.DIM) is OK, which suggests that in
(my) German, <i>Schlückchen</i> no longer is a semantic diminutive.
The same might be testable for reduplicating 'diminutives', I guess.<br>
Best,<br>
Wolfgang<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 04.03.2013 15:24, schrieb Nigel
Vincent:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1932B7F071337A4088C8050DE465747D3A57BF1C@MBXP11.ds.man.ac.uk"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Something else about Italian which shows that, as Giorgio suggests, the exact value can vary with each item is the way in Italian some of the diminutives have become independent lexical items - e.g. pane 'bread' vs panino 'bread roll' or with adjectives: caro 'dear (in both senses') and carino 'pretty'. Once lexicalised they can go off further in their own directions: e.g. casa 'house' vs casino 'brothel' (originally a house for a private gathering - which I suppose in a way a brothel still is!).
It would be interesting to know if there is a similar lexicalisation effect with the reduplicative type.
Nigel
Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA
Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics
The University of Manchester
Vice-President for Research & HE Policy, The British Academy
Linguistics & English Language
School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
The University of Manchester
Manchester M13 9PL
UK
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.llc.manchester.ac.uk/subjects/lel/staff/nigel-vincent/">http://www.llc.manchester.ac.uk/subjects/lel/staff/nigel-vincent/</a>
________________________________________
From: Discussion List for ALT [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>]
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 2:01 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>
Subject: Re: Reduplication OR pure diminutives
Dear colleagues,
Incidentally, the stol-ik 'small table' example is found
also in Italian:
tavolo > tavol-ino 'small table'
Which refers only to size. Thus, as Francesca suggests,
the exact connotation of diminutives may actually depend
on the specific item involved.
Best,
Giorgio F. Arcodia
--
Dr. Giorgio Francesco Arcodia
Università degli Studi di Milano-Bicocca
Dipartimento di Scienze Umane per la Formazione
Edificio U6 - stanza 4101
Piazza dell'Ateneo Nuovo, 1
20126 Milano
Tel.: (+39) 02 6448 4946
Fax: (+39) 02 6448 4863
E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:giorgio.arcodia@unimib.it">giorgio.arcodia@unimib.it</a>
On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 14:19:40 +0100
Francesca Di Garbo <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:francescadigarbo@GMAIL.COM"><francescadigarbo@GMAIL.COM></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Hannu,
Thanks a lot for your clarification to my message. I
actually didn't mean to interpret Östen's example as if
the Russian diminutive marker encodes only small size in
all its occurrences. I only meant to say that it is
cross-linguistically common for diminutive markers to
encode only size with certain nouns (as in the example
quoted by Östen for Russian). It seems to me that this
may depend on the meaning of the noun to which the
diminutive marker is attached, on the context of
occurrence, and on the presence of other diminutive
markers in a language. I hope this sounds less ambiguous
now.
Thanks again and best wishes,
Francesca
On 2013-03-04 13:38, Hannu Tommola wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Francesca and all,
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">However, as Östen's example suggests, it happens that
the use of a diminutive marker gets restricted to the
encoding of size variation only.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
I am afraid Östen didn't want to say that the diminutive
_marker_ in Russian is restricted to refer only to size.
He said "in Russian there are diminutives that seem
fairly free of evaluative or expressive meaning", and his
example _stol-ik_ 'small table' does not prove that the
marker with other words refers to size.
Russ. _chashe-chka kofe/chaja/u_ doesn't necessarily
refer to a small cup but simply to 'a nice cup of
coffee/tea'; an even more clear example without any hint
to small size is _kon'ja-chok_ 'cognac' or any other
uncountable noun.
Best,
Hannu
Quoting Francesca Di Garbo <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:francescadigarbo@gmail.com"><francescadigarbo@gmail.com></a>:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Scott and dear All,
As far as we now, the most common source of diminutive
affixes crosslinguistically is the noun for "child"
(Jurafsky 1996). This usually starts being used as a sort
of classificatory noun to refer to the young age of
animate entities and gets gradually extended to inanimate
nouns where it marks small size with countable nouns and
small quantity with uncountable. Interestingly, there is
no evidence for affixal diminutives to derive from
modifiers meaning "small'. On the other hand, the
diachronic development of diminutive reduplication is
very difficult to pin down, considering its intertwinment
with other grammatical functions (plurality,
distributivity, attenuation etc.). It would be
interesting to investigate if the notion of
/fragmentation /used by Alex to make sense of the
polysemy of reduplication in Mwotlap is also applicable
on the diachronic level. Also, it would be interesting to
see how common reduplicative patterns for diminutive
marking are across other Creoles (which I don't have any
clue about).
As for the second point under discussion (whether on not
diminutives can express only size):
Synchronically, diminutives express evaluation of
quantity (SMALL) and quality (BAD or GOOD) and, as Paul
points out, the two components are not easy to tell apart
when analysing the semantics of a diminutive affix.
However, as Östen's example suggests, it happens that the
use of a diminutive marker gets restricted to the
encoding of size variation only. I have the impression
that this is very likely to happen in languages with
several different diminutive (and possibly augmentative)
affixes, where the different markers show different
distributional properties in terms of the meanings
encoded. The Bantu languages are an excellent
illustration in this respect as the examples from Yeyi
show. Bantu languages (and other Niger-Congo languages
with rich noun class systems as the Atlantic languages)
often have several noun classes which are used to encode
evaluative (diminutive and augmentative) meanings.
Interestingly, besides the range of uses pointed out by
Frank with respect to Yeyi, different diminutive classes
in one language may specialize in the encoding of
different size nuances (small vs. tiny) as in the example
below from Lega, where class 12 expresses small size and
class 19 tiny size:
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"
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normal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
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mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">----------------------------------------------------------</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">Prof.
Dr. Wolfgang
Schulze </span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
"Times New Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
normal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">----------------------------------------------------------
</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">Institut für
Allgemeine & Typologische Sprachwissenschaft <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
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style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:
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"Times New Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times
New Roman";mso-fareast-language:
DE">. II / F 13
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<p class="MsoNormal"
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style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität
München
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">Ludwigstraße
25
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
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mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">D-80539
München
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
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style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
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0049-(0)89-2180-2486
(Secretary)
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0049-(0)89-2180-5343
(Office)
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style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
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Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">Fax:
0049-(0)89-2180-5345
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
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mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">Email: <a
href="mailto:W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de">W.Schulze@lrz.uni-muenchen.de</a>
/// <a href="mailto:Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de">Wolfgang.Schulze@lmu.de</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
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Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">Web: </span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
DE" lang="EN-US"><a href="http://www.ats.lmu.de/index.html"><span
style="mso-ansi-language:
DE" lang="DE">http://www.ats.lmu.de/index.html</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:
8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";
mso-fareast-language:DE"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
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style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
DE" lang="EN-US">Personal homepage: <a
href="http://www.schulzewolfgang.de">http://www.schulzewolfgang.de</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
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style="font-size:8.0pt;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
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mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-fareast-language:DE">----------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;mso-bidi-font-family:
Arial;color:#4D4D4D">Diese e-Mail kann vertrauliche und/oder
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