<HTML><BODY><br><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">Dear Ewa,</p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">thanks a lot!</p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"> Your Polish example is as follows:</p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"> </p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">- <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><em>zaatakować</em><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">- <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><em>napaść</em><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><em>na<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></em>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized allative construction).</p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">The cognate Russian verbs have the same government:</p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">atakovat' ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span lang="RU">napast' </span>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><em>na<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></em>with a NPACC</p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" lang="RU" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">Our colleague Scott T. Shell</span> suggests me (within this thread) a similar example from</p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">German:</span></p><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Den Mann habe ich gesehen.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">DEF.ACC man AUX 1SG.NOM saw</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">'I say the man.'</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Ich gehe durch den Gang</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">1SG.NOM go through DEF.ACC hallway</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">'I go through the hallway.'</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt;">Yet neither Polish/Russian </span><em style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt;">na</em><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt;"> nor German durch are Direct Object Markers pure and simple, they both retain their meanings as lative/locative prepositions. What I am looking for is a “pure” and (under certain conditions) obligatory Direct Object Marker (like `et in Hebrew) which synchronically has no other (more concrete) meanings. I wonder if this kind of DOM is at all compatible with ACC (which would amount to double marking of the Direct Object).</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">I will address your Coptic example in the next email.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> All best,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> Sergey</span></p><br><br>Суббота, 25 мая 2013, 16:37 UTC от "Zakrzewska, E.D." <E.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl>:<br>
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<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Dear Sergey,</font></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">
</font></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">A good example is Polish, compare:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">-<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">zaatakować</span></i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"> ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC
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<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3;tab-stops: list 36.0pt">
<span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">-<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">napaść</span></i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"> ‘attack, assault’ + preposition
<i>na </i>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized allative construction).</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Another example may be Coptic (Afroasiatic, the final stage of Ancient Egyptian). In Coptic there are two strategies
to mark the direct object: head-marking and dependent-marking. Head-marking involves the use of the so-called
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt;mso-ansi-language: EN-US">construct or pronominal state allomorph of the verb to which a nominal, respectively pronominal direct object is attached.
When the verb appears in the absolute state allomorph, </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt;mso-ansi-language: EN-US">dependent-marking of the object by means of a preposition is required.
Several prepositions can occur in this function, of which <i>n-</i> (dedicated preposition) and
<i>e-</i> (grammaticalization of the allative) are most important.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Basic information about Coptic grammar can be found in
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt;mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Reintges C.H.,
<i>Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic dialect): a learner's grammar</i>, </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Köln: Köppe, 2004. I’m currently working on a comprehensive article on transitivity in Coptic, to
be published in the <i>Proceedings of the 10th International Congress of Coptic Studies in Rome</i> and I can send you a copy soon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Best regards,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Ewa Zakrzewska</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"> </span></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg"><font face="Tahoma" color="#000000" size="2"><b>Van:</b> Discussion List for ALT [LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org] namens Sergey Lyosov [sergelyosov@inbox.ru]<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 24 mei 2013 19:35<br>
<b>To:</b> LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> accusative + analytical DO markers<br>
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<p>Dear colleagues, <br>
Do we know of languages that have both the accusative case and analytical direct object markers (pre- or postpositions)?</p>
<p>Lots of thanks, <br>
Sergey</p>
<p>Dr. Sergey Loesov<br>
Oriental Institute<br>
Russian State University for the Humanities<br>
6 Miusskaya pl. Moscow 125267, Russia.</p>
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