<div dir="ltr"><div>It's interesting that the terminology used seems to determine the way that languages look to us. So if we take the view that 'accusative case' and 'analytic direct object markers' are really different, then one can say that Spanish has a case distinction in pronouns as well as an 'analytic direct object marker.' </div>
<div> </div><div>But since clitics and affixes are often hard to tell apart, as are adpositions and case markers, one might just say that some varieties of Spanish have both differential indexing (<em>la </em>vs. nothing) and differential flagging (<em>a </em>vs. nothing). This would give a different grouping, since the person indexes ('pronominal clitics') wouldn't be an instance of 'case-marked pronouns,' but the accusative marker (<em>a</em>) <em>would </em>be a flag.</div>
<div> </div><div>There are some examples already in Old Spanish of both indexing and flagging in the same clause, taken from an article by Dufter & Stark 2008*, e.g.,</div><div> </div><div><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><i><span lang="FR">a
mí non me pesa</span></i><span lang="FR">
(Cantar de Mio Cid, v. 1480)</span></font></font></font></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><span lang="EN-GB">to me.pron
neg <a href="http://me.cl" target="_blank">me.cl</a> grieve.prs.3sg</span></font></font></font></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-GB"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang">‘It
does not grieve me.’</font></font></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="margin:6pt 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><i><span lang="FR"></span></i></font></font></font> </p><p style="margin:6pt 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><i><span lang="FR">a Él le plaziendo, muriera</span></i><span lang="FR"> (Rimado de Palacio,
1378-1406)</span></font></font></font></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><span lang="EN-GB">to God
<a href="http://him.cl" target="_blank">him.cl</a> like.ger die.fut.3sg</span></font></font></font></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-GB"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang">‘If
He (God) likes it, he will die.’</font></font></font></span></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font></div>
<div> </div><div>There are also plenty of examples of this sort of thing in Semitic languages (e.g., Ge'ez, different varieties of Aramaic), where it's often called 'prolepsis.' But I'm sure that Sergey knows a lot more about this than I do. </div>
<div> </div><div>
So I think that in order to focus the question, one might ask: are there cases in which P is simultaneously marked by two distinct flags?</div><div> </div><div><span lang="FR" style="font-family:"Garamond","serif""><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><p align="left" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
*Dufter, A. & Stark, E., 2008. ‘Double indirect object
marking in Spanish and Italian,’ in <span lang="FR" style="font-family:"Garamond","serif"">Seoane, E. & López-Couso, María José (eds.).
Theoretical and empirical issues in grammaticalization.
Amsterdam/Philadelphia : John Benjamins. </span><font face="Times New Roman">11</font>1-129.</p></font><p align="left" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal"></p></font><p align="left" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal">
</p></span><p align="left" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;text-align:left;line-height:normal"></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font></div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Sergey Lyosov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";font-size:12pt">Dear Paolo,<br> yes, this is correct, but the noun of these Romance varieties lost its inflection for case long ago. It is clear that both Standard Spanish and South Italian developed their famous <em>He visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria/ Ho visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria </em>after the loss of cases. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">You say:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><div class="im"><span style="font-size:12pt">The use of DOM is subject to certain constraints: the OBJ has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite] etc.</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span></div>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";font-size:12pt"><br> I believe the </span><span style="font-size:12pt">[+definite] constraint does not apply at least to Spanish.</span><p></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size:12pt"> With all best wishes,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"> Sergey</span></p><br>Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 11:53 +02:00 от Paolo Ramat <<a href="mailto:paoram@UNIPV.IT" target="_blank">paoram@UNIPV.IT</a>>:<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<blockquote style="margin:10px;padding:0px 0px 0px 10px;border-left-color:rgb(8,87,166);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:"Calibri";font-size:12pt">
<div>Dear All,</div>
<div>DOM as obligatory marking of Direct Object (DO) is a well-known feature of
(South)Italian dialects and other Romance varieties (e.g. Catalan)</div>
<div>I wouldn’t consider<em> Ich gehe durch den Gang</em> as an ex. of DO. As
Sergey rightly states, we have here a PP specifying the notion of
‘gehen’.</div>
<div>But when you have <em>Ho visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria</em> ‘I saw Mary’
instead of standard Italian <em>Ho visto Maria,</em> Catal<em>. </em><font face="Times New Roman"><span><em>les monges<span> </span>no estimen <u>a</u> les
nenes</em><span> <font face="Calibri">‘the nuns
don’t lik the girls’, </font></span></span></font><em>a</em> is a real DO marker
and the construction is Nomin./Accus. The use of DOM is subject to certain
constraints: the OBJ has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite]
etc.</div>
<div>References: A. Ledgeway, <em>From Latin to Romance</em>, OUP 2012.<font face="Batang"> </font><span><font style="font-size:10pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio (2009), La marcatura differenziale
dell’oggetto in siciliano antico.<span>
</span></font></span><font style="font-size:10pt"><i><span lang="EN-GB">Arch.
Glottol. Ital.</span></i></font><span lang="EN-GB"><font style="font-size:10pt"> 94: 185-<span>
</span>225; <font style="font-size:12pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio</font><font style="font-size:12pt"> and Gerson Klumpp (in preparation). <em>Differential
Object Marking: theoretical and empirical issues</em>. Special issue of
<em>Linguistics</em>.</font></font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font-family:"Calibri";font-size:12pt">All
best</div>
<div style="font-family:"Calibri";font-size:12pt">Paolo</div>
<div style="font-family:"Calibri";font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none;display:inline">
<div style="font:10pt/normal tahoma;font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
<div><font face="Calibri" size="3"></font> </div>
<div style="background:rgb(245,245,245)">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="sergelyosov@INBOX.RU" href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@INBOX.RU" target="_blank">Sergey Lyosov</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:20 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: accusative + analytical DO markers</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="font-family:"Calibri";font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none;display:inline"><br>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">Dear
Ewa,</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">thanks
a lot!</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">Your
Polish example is as follows:</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">-
<span> </span><em>zaatakować</em><span> </span>‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">-
<span> </span><em>napaść</em><span> </span>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized
allative construction).</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">The
cognate Russian verbs have the same government:</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">atakovat'
‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span lang="RU">napast' </span>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a NPACC</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span lang="RU"></span> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span>Our
colleague Scott T. Shell</span> suggests me (within this thread) a similar
example from</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span>German:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"> </p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">Den
Mann habe
ich
gesehen.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">DEF.ACC
man AUX 1SG.NOM
saw</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">'I say
the man.'</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"></span> </p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">Ich
gehe durch
den
Gang</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">1SG.NOM
go through DEF.ACC
hallway</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">'I go
through the hallway.'</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">Yet neither
Polish/Russian </span><em style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">na</em><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt"> nor German durch
are Direct Object Markers pure and simple, they both retain their meanings as
lative/locative prepositions. What I am looking for is a “pure” and (under
certain conditions) obligatory Direct Object Marker (like `et in Hebrew) which
synchronically has no other (more concrete) meanings. I wonder if this kind of
DOM is at all compatible with ACC (which would amount to double marking of the
Direct Object).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">I will
address your Coptic example in the next email.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">
All best,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;font-size:12pt">
Sergey</span></p><br><br>Суббота, 25 мая 2013, 16:37 UTC от "Zakrzewska, E.D."
<<a href="mailto:E.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl" target="_blank">E.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl</a>>:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:10px;padding:0px 0px 0px 10px;border-left-color:rgb(8,87,166);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:tahoma;font-size:10pt;direction:ltr">
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Dear
Sergey,</font></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">A
good example is Polish, compare:<span>
</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">-<span style="font:7pt/normal "Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
</span></span><i><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">zaatakować</span></i><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">
‘attack, assault’ + NPACC </span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">-<span style="font:7pt/normal "Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal">
</span></span><i><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">napaść</span></i><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">
‘attack, assault’ + preposition <i>na </i>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized
allative construction).</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt"></span> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">Another
example may be Coptic (Afroasiatic, the final stage of Ancient Egyptian). In
Coptic there are two strategies to mark the direct object: head-marking and
dependent-marking. Head-marking involves the use of the so-called </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">construct
or pronominal state allomorph of the verb to which a nominal, respectively
pronominal direct object is attached. When the verb appears in the absolute
state allomorph, </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">dependent-marking
of the object by means of a preposition is required. Several prepositions can
occur in this function, of which <i>n-</i> (dedicated preposition) and
<i>e-</i> (grammaticalization of the allative) are most important.<span> </span></span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt"><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">Basic
information about Coptic grammar can be found in </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">Reintges
C.H., <i>Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic dialect): a learner's grammar</i>,
</span><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">Köln:
Köppe, 2004. I’m currently working on a comprehensive article on transitivity
in Coptic, to be published in the <i>Proceedings of the 10th International
Congress of Coptic Studies in Rome</i> and I can send you a copy soon.<span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt"></span> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">Best
regards,</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt">Ewa
Zakrzewska</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";font-size:12pt"></span> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<hr>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>Van:</b>
Discussion List for ALT [<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] namens Sergey
Lyosov [<a href="mailto:sergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>]<br><b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 24 mei 2013
19:35<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><b>Onderwerp:</b>
accusative + analytical DO markers<br></font><br></div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p>Dear colleagues, <br>Do we know of languages that have both the accusative
case and analytical direct object markers (pre- or postpositions)?</p>
<p>Lots of thanks, <br>Sergey</p>
<p>Dr. Sergey Loesov<br>Oriental Institute<br>Russian State University for the
Humanities<br>6 Miusskaya pl. Moscow 125267, Russia.</p>
<p> </p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><br></div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br></div></div></p></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Eitan Grossman<div>Lecturer, Department of Linguistics/School of Language Sciences<br></div><div>Hebrew University of Jerusalem</div><div>Tel: +972 2 588 1885</div>
<div>Fax: +972 2 588 0265</div></div>
</div>