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<DIV>Dear All,</DIV>
<DIV>DOM as obligatory marking of Direct Object (DO) is a well-known feature of
(South)Italian dialects and other Romance varieties (e.g. Catalan)</DIV>
<DIV>I wouldn’t consider<EM> Ich gehe durch den Gang</EM> as an ex. of DO. As
Sergey rightly states, we have here a PP specifying the notion of
‘gehen’.</DIV>
<DIV>But when you have <EM>Ho visto <U>a</U></EM> <EM>Maria</EM> ‘I saw Mary’
instead of standard Italian <EM>Ho visto Maria,</EM> Catal<EM>. </EM><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN><EM>les monges<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>no estimen <U>a</U> les
nenes</EM><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> <FONT face=Calibri>‘the nuns
don’t lik the girls’, </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><EM>a</EM> is a real DO marker
and the construction is Nomin./Accus. The use of DOM is subject to certain
constraints: the OBJ has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite]
etc.</DIV>
<DIV>References: A. Ledgeway, <EM>From Latin to Romance</EM>, OUP 2012.<FONT
face=Batang> </FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; mso-ansi-language: it; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: it; mso-bidi-language: ar-sa"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio (2009), La marcatura differenziale
dell’oggetto in siciliano antico.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; mso-ansi-language: en-gb; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: it; mso-bidi-language: ar-sa">Arch.
Glottol. Ital.</SPAN></I></FONT><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-FAMILY: ; mso-ansi-language: en-gb; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: it; mso-bidi-language: ar-sa"><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> 94: 185-<SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN>225; <FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio</FONT><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> and Gerson Klumpp (in preparation). <EM>Differential
Object Marking: theoretical and empirical issues</EM>. Special issue of
<EM>Linguistics</EM>.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">All
best</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">Paolo</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=sergelyosov@INBOX.RU
href="mailto:sergelyosov@INBOX.RU">Sergey Lyosov</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: accusative + analytical DO markers</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none; DISPLAY: inline"><BR>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">Dear
Ewa,</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">thanks
a lot!</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">Your
Polish example is as follows:</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">-
<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><EM>zaatakować</EM><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">-
<SPAN class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><EM>napaść</EM><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><EM>na<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></EM>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized
allative construction).</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">The
cognate Russian verbs have the same government:</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">atakovat'
‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
lang=RU>napast' </SPAN>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><EM>na<SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN></EM>with a NPACC</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
lang=RU
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">Our
colleague Scott T. Shell</SPAN> suggests me (within this thread) a similar
example from</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">German:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt"
data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; text-indent: -18pt; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Den
Mann habe
ich
gesehen.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">DEF.ACC
man AUX 1SG.NOM
saw</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">'I say
the man.'</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Ich
gehe durch
den
Gang</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">1SG.NOM
go through DEF.ACC
hallway</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">'I go
through the hallway.'</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif">Yet neither
Polish/Russian </SPAN><EM
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif">na</EM><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"> nor German durch
are Direct Object Markers pure and simple, they both retain their meanings as
lative/locative prepositions. What I am looking for is a “pure” and (under
certain conditions) obligatory Direct Object Marker (like `et in Hebrew) which
synchronically has no other (more concrete) meanings. I wonder if this kind of
DOM is at all compatible with ACC (which would amount to double marking of the
Direct Object).</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">I will
address your Coptic example in the next email.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
All best,</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif"
data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
Sergey</SPAN></P><BR><BR>Суббота, 25 мая 2013, 16:37 UTC от "Zakrzewska, E.D."
<E.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl>:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=mailru-blockquote
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 10px; MARGIN: 10px; BORDER-LEFT: #0857a6 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
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href="https://e.mail.ru/" target=_self>
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<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; COLOR: #000000; DIRECTION: ltr">
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Dear
Sergey,</FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">A
good example is Polish, compare:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list 36.0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">-<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">zaatakować</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">
‘attack, assault’ + NPACC </SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list 36.0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">-<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">napaść</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">
‘attack, assault’ + preposition <I>na </I>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized
allative construction).</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Another
example may be Coptic (Afroasiatic, the final stage of Ancient Egyptian). In
Coptic there are two strategies to mark the direct object: head-marking and
dependent-marking. Head-marking involves the use of the so-called </SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: en-us; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">construct
or pronominal state allomorph of the verb to which a nominal, respectively
pronominal direct object is attached. When the verb appears in the absolute
state allomorph, </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: en-us; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">dependent-marking
of the object by means of a preposition is required. Several prepositions can
occur in this function, of which <I>n-</I> (dedicated preposition) and
<I>e-</I> (grammaticalization of the allative) are most important.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Basic
information about Coptic grammar can be found in </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: en-us; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Reintges
C.H., <I>Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic dialect): a learner's grammar</I>,
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Köln:
Köppe, 2004. I’m currently working on a comprehensive article on transitivity
in Coptic, to be published in the <I>Proceedings of the 10th International
Congress of Coptic Studies in Rome</I> and I can send you a copy soon.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Best
regards,</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Ewa
Zakrzewska</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"></SPAN> </P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<DIV id=divRplyFwdMsg><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Tahoma><B>Van:</B>
Discussion List for ALT [LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org] namens Sergey
Lyosov [sergelyosov@inbox.ru]<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> vrijdag 24 mei 2013
19:35<BR><B>To:</B> LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B>
accusative + analytical DO markers<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Dear colleagues, <BR>Do we know of languages that have both the accusative
case and analytical direct object markers (pre- or postpositions)?</P>
<P>Lots of thanks, <BR>Sergey</P>
<P>Dr. Sergey Loesov<BR>Oriental Institute<BR>Russian State University for the
Humanities<BR>6 Miusskaya pl. Moscow 125267, Russia.</P>
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