<HTML><BODY>No-no, I believe the function of ET/OT in Hebrew (especially in Biblical Hebrew) is not the double marking I am looking for (analytical DOM + ACC case ending), et/ot is a host for bound accusative pronouns and thus an alternative to accusative pronouns hosted directly on the verb: ra'iti OTO = re'itiW "I saw him"<br> <br>Sergey<br><br><br>Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 21:08 +09:00 от David Gil <gil@EVA.MPG.DE>:<br>
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If you include pronouns in the scope of the query, then Hebrew also
has doubly-case-marked forms such as<br>
<br>
ot=i ACC=PREP.1SG<br>
ot=xa ACC=PREP.2SGM<br>
ot=ax ACC=PREP.2SGF<br>
etc.<br>
<br>
However, as suggested by the interlinear gloss "PREP", the
pronominal enclitics aren't really accusatives, but rather
non-nominative, or "prepositional" forms, which occur after other
prepositions as well, such as l- 'to', b- 'in' / 'instrumental' and
others, eg.<br>
<br>
l=i to=PREP.1SG <br>
l(e)=xa to=PREP.2SGM<br>
l=ax to=PREP.2SGF<br>
etc.<br>
<br>
This seems very similar to what José describes for Spanish, and not
quite what Sergey is looking for.<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 26/05/2013 19:58, "José M.
García-Miguel" wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:51A1EABB.4030908@uvigo.es" type="cite">
<div>As Paolo says, DOM is a well-kown
feature of some Romance languages giving place to prepositional
marking of some Direct Objects. <br>
But, I guess that the examples proposed by Paolo do not qualify
as "having both the accusative case and analytical direct object
markers (pre- or postpositions)", that Sergey was looking for.
Nouns do not vary for case, and I would not say that <i>Maria </i>is
accusative [case] in <i>Ho visto a Maria.<br>
</i>However, personal independent pronouns and pronominal
clitics do vary for case: Spanish <i>yo </i>[Nominative]<i> </i>'I'
vs <i>mí </i>[not-Nominative, prepositional case] 'me' vs <i>me</i>
[1sg clitic], and in 3rd person clitics Accusative <i>lo(s),
la(s) </i>vs Dative <i>le(s)<br>
</i>Thus<i>, </i>in<i> </i>Sp.<i> </i><i>Me ha visto a mi </i>'(s)he
has seen me', the object is expressed by 1sg clitic <i>me</i>,
the preposition <i>a</i>, and the non-Nominative <i>mi<br>
<br>
</i>A<i> </i>3rd person accusative clitic is compatible with an
<i>a</i>-marked Directo Object in the same clause (this is a
common pattern in some varieties of Spanish, mainly Buenos Aires
Sp., and less common in other varieties):<br>
<br>
<i>La he visto a Maria </i><br>
3.ACC.F have seen PREP Maria<br>
'I have seen Maria'<i><br>
</i><br>
This example has "both the accusative case [in the clitic <i>la</i>]
and an analytical direct object marker [preposition <i>a</i>]",
but the accusative case is not in the name <i>Maria.</i> <br>
<br>
All best,<br>
Jose M. Garcia-Miguel<br>
University of Vigo<br>
<br>
El 26/05/2013 11:53, Paolo Ramat escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:1FA2EC75319B4D5E9D19DA6A43B658E8@PaoloPC" type="cite">
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<div>Dear All,</div>
<div>DOM as obligatory marking of Direct Object (DO) is a
well-known feature of (South)Italian dialects and other
Romance varieties (e.g. Catalan)</div>
<div>I wouldn’t consider<em> Ich gehe durch den Gang</em> as
an ex. of DO. As Sergey rightly states, we have here a PP
specifying the notion of ‘gehen’.</div>
<div>But when you have <em>Ho visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria</em>
‘I saw Mary’ instead of standard Italian <em>Ho visto
Maria,</em> Catal<em>. </em><font face="Times New
Roman"><span><em>les monges<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>no estimen <u>a</u> les nenes</em><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> <font face="Calibri">‘the
nuns don’t lik the girls’, </font></span></span></font><em>a</em>
is a real DO marker and the construction is Nomin./Accus.
The use of DOM is subject to certain constraints: the OBJ
has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite] etc.</div>
<div>References: A. Ledgeway, <em>From Latin to Romance</em>,
OUP 2012.<font face="Batang"> </font><span style="font-family: ;mso-ansi-language: it;mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-fareast-language: it;mso-bidi-language: ar-sa"><font style="font-size: 10pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio (2009), La
marcatura differenziale dell’oggetto in siciliano
antico.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></font></span><font style="font-size: 10pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span style="font-family: ;mso-ansi-language: en-gb;mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-fareast-language: it;mso-bidi-language: ar-sa" lang="EN-GB">Arch. Glottol. Ital.</span></i></font><span style="font-family: ;mso-ansi-language: en-gb;mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-fareast-language: it;mso-bidi-language: ar-sa" lang="EN-GB"><font style="font-size: 10pt"> 94: 185-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </span>225; <font style="font-size: 12pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio</font><font style="font-size: 12pt"> and Gerson Klumpp (in
preparation). <em>Differential Object Marking:
theoretical and empirical issues</em>. Special
issue of <em>Linguistics</em>.</font></font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Calibri';color: #000000">All best</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Calibri';color: #000000">Paolo</div>
<div style="font-size: small;font-family: 'Calibri';font-weight: normal;color: #000000;font-style: normal;text-decoration: none;display: inline">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="background: #f5f5f5">
<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="sergelyosov@INBOX.RU" href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@INBOX.RU" target="_blank">Sergey Lyosov</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:20 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" title="LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: accusative + analytical DO
markers</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="font-size: small;font-family: 'Calibri';font-weight: normal;color: #000000;font-style: normal;text-decoration: none;display: inline"><br>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">Dear Ewa,</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">thanks a lot!</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">Your Polish example
is as follows:</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">- <span> </span><em>zaatakować</em><span> </span>‘attack,
assault’ + NPACC</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">- <span> </span><em>napaść</em><span> </span>‘attack,
assault’ + preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a
NPACC (a grammaticalized allative construction).</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">The
cognate Russian verbs have the same government:</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">atakovat'
‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span lang="RU">napast' </span>‘attack, assault’ +
preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a
NPACC</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;" lang="RU"></span> </p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">Our colleague
Scott T. Shell</span> suggests me (within this thread)
a similar example from</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">German:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"> </p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Den
Mann habe ich gesehen.</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">DEF.ACC
man AUX 1SG.NOM saw</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">'I say the
man.'</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"></span> </p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Ich
gehe durch den Gang</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">1SG.NOM
go through DEF.ACC hallway</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">'I go through
the hallway.'</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif">Yet neither Polish/Russian </span><em style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif">na</em><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif"> nor German
durch are Direct Object Markers pure and simple, they
both retain their meanings as lative/locative
prepositions. What I am looking for is a “pure” and
(under certain conditions) obligatory Direct Object
Marker (like `et in Hebrew) which synchronically has
no other (more concrete) meanings. I wonder if this
kind of DOM is at all compatible with ACC (which would
amount to double marking of the Direct Object).</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">I will address
your Coptic example in the next email.</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> All best,</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> Sergey</span></p>
<br>
<br>
Суббота, 25 мая 2013, 16:37 UTC от "Zakrzewska, E.D." <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aE.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl" target="_blank"><E.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl></a>:<br>
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<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Dear
Sergey,</font></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">A good example is Polish, compare:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3;tab-stops: list 36.0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">-<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span><i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">zaatakować</span></i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"> ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3;tab-stops: list 36.0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">-<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span><i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">napaść</span></i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"> ‘attack, assault’ + preposition <i>na
</i>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized
allative construction).</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"></span> </p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Another example may be Coptic
(Afroasiatic, the final stage of Ancient
Egyptian). In Coptic there are two
strategies to mark the direct object:
head-marking and dependent-marking.
Head-marking involves the use of the
so-called </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-ansi-language: en-us;mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt" lang="EN-US">construct
or pronominal state allomorph of the verb
to which a nominal, respectively
pronominal direct object is attached. When
the verb appears in the absolute state
allomorph, </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-ansi-language: en-us;mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt" lang="EN-US">dependent-marking
of the object by means of a preposition is
required. Several prepositions can occur
in this function, of which <i>n-</i>
(dedicated preposition) and <i>e-</i>
(grammaticalization of the allative) are
most important.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Basic information about Coptic
grammar can be found in </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-ansi-language: en-us;mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt" lang="EN-US">Reintges C.H., <i>Coptic
Egyptian (Sahidic dialect): a learner's
grammar</i>, </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Köln: Köppe, 2004. I’m currently
working on a comprehensive article on
transitivity in Coptic, to be published in
the <i>Proceedings of the 10th
International Congress of Coptic Studies
in Rome</i> and I can send you a copy
soon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"></span> </p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Best regards,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Ewa Zakrzewska</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"></span> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>Van:</b>
Discussion List for ALT [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
namens Sergey Lyosov [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>]<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 24 mei 2013
19:35<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> accusative + analytical
DO markers<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div>
<p>Dear colleagues, <br>
Do we know of languages that have both the
accusative case and analytical direct
object markers (pre- or postpositions)?</p>
<p>Lots of thanks, <br>
Sergey</p>
<p>Dr. Sergey Loesov<br>
Oriental Institute<br>
Russian State University for the
Humanities<br>
6 Miusskaya pl. Moscow 125267, Russia.</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
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<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550119
Email: <a href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3agil@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage: <a href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/" target="_blank">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>
</pre>
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