<HTML><BODY>Yes, <em style="font-family: Batang; font-size: medium;" data-mce-style="font-family: Batang; font-size: medium;"><span lang="FR">a mí non me pesa </span></em> is the same as "a mi no me importa," "a mi me da igual," etc.<br> Sergey<br><br><br>Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 15:52 UTC от Jon Aske <jaske@SALEMSTATE.EDU>:<br>
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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: 10pt;">I haven't been following this thread, so forgive me if I'm way off, but I can tell you that this A is not a so-called "personal A" (the A used with human direct objects), but an
indirect object A. ME and MI are indirect object pronouns (the first one is the weak clitic form and the second one the strong form). PESAR is not a transitive verb, but an intransitive one, which here takes on an indirect object. It's the same construction
as for GUSTAR "to please" = "like". A more literal translation would be something like "It does not weigh on me". -J
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<div id="divRpF14653" style="direction: ltr;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Discussion List for ALT [LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] on behalf of Paolo Ramat [paoram@UNIPV.IT]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: accusative + analytical DO markers<br>
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<div>Dear Typologists,</div>
<div>May 26 Sergey has written: <font face="Times New Roman">the noun of these Romance varieties lost its inflection for case long ago. It is clear that both Standard Spanish and South Italian developed their famous
<em>He visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria/ Ho visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria </em>after the loss of cases. He’s right</font></div>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><i><span lang="FR">a mí non me pesa</span></i><span lang="FR"> (Cantar de Mio Cid, v. 1480)</span></font></font></font></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><span lang="EN-GB">to me.pron neg
<a href="http://me.cl" target="_blank">me.cl</a> grieve.prs.3sg i.e. </span></font></font></font><span lang="EN-GB"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang">‘It does not grieve me’ has a perfect pendant in Mod. It.
<em>a me non mi pesa</em>. However I wonder whether <em>pesar(e)</em> is really a transit. verb with an object (what could be the object in this sentence?)</font></font></font></span><font face="Batang">. I think that
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<div><b>From:</b> <a title="eitan.grossman@MAIL.HUJI.AC.IL" href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aeitan.grossman@MAIL.HUJI.AC.IL" target="_blank">
Eitan Grossman</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 26, 2013 3:55 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">
LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: accusative + analytical DO markers</div>
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<div>It's interesting that the terminology used seems to determine the way that languages look to us. So if we take the view that 'accusative case' and 'analytic direct object markers' are really different, then one can say that Spanish has a case distinction
in pronouns as well as an 'analytic direct object marker.' </div>
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<div>But since clitics and affixes are often hard to tell apart, as are adpositions and case markers, one might just say that some varieties of Spanish have both differential indexing (<em>la
</em>vs. nothing) and differential flagging (<em>a </em>vs. nothing). This would give a different grouping, since the person indexes ('pronominal clitics') wouldn't be an instance of 'case-marked pronouns,' but the accusative marker (<em>a</em>)
<em>would </em>be a flag.</div>
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<div>There are some examples already in Old Spanish of both indexing and flagging in the same clause, taken from an article by Dufter & Stark 2008*, e.g.,</div>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><i><span lang="FR">a mí non me pesa</span></i><span lang="FR"> (Cantar de Mio Cid, v. 1480)</span></font></font></font></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><span lang="EN-GB">to me.pron neg
<a href="http://me.cl" target="_blank">me.cl</a> grieve.prs.3sg</span></font></font></font></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-GB"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang">‘It does not grieve me.’</font></font></font></span></p>
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<p style="margin:6pt 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><i><span lang="FR"></span></i></font></font></font> </p>
<p style="margin:6pt 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><i><span lang="FR">a Él le plaziendo, muriera</span></i><span lang="FR"> (Rimado de Palacio, 1378-1406)</span></font></font></font></p>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang"><span lang="EN-GB">to God
<a href="http://him.cl" target="_blank">him.cl</a> like.ger die.fut.3sg</span></font></font></font></p>
<font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-GB"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Batang">‘If He (God) likes it, he will die.’</font></font></font></span></p>
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<div>There are also plenty of examples of this sort of thing in Semitic languages (e.g., Ge'ez, different varieties of Aramaic), where it's often called 'prolepsis.' But I'm sure that Sergey knows a lot more about this than I do.
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<div>So I think that in order to focus the question, one might ask: are there cases in which P is simultaneously marked by two distinct flags?</div>
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<div><span lang="FR" style="font-family:'Garamond','serif'"><font size="3"><font color="#000000">
<p align="left" style="text-align:left;margin:0cm 0cm 0pt;line-height:normal">*Dufter, A. & Stark, E., 2008. ‘Double indirect object marking in Spanish and Italian,’ in
<span lang="FR" style="font-family:'Garamond','serif'">Seoane, E. & López-Couso, María José (eds.). Theoretical and empirical issues in grammaticalization. Amsterdam/Philadelphia : John Benjamins.
</span><font face="Times New Roman">11</font>1-129.</p>
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<div>On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Sergey Lyosov <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif'">Dear Paolo,<br>
yes, this is correct, but the noun of these Romance varieties lost its inflection for case long ago. It is clear that both Standard Spanish and South Italian developed their famous
<em>He visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria/ Ho visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria </em>after the loss of cases.
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">You say:</span></p>
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<div><span style="font-size:12pt">The use of DOM is subject to certain constraints: the OBJ has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite] etc.</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> </span></div>
<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif'"><br>
I believe the </span><span style="font-size:12pt">[+definite] constraint does not apply at least to Spanish.</span>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> With all best wishes,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> Sergey</span></p>
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Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 11:53 +02:00 от Paolo Ramat <<a href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3apaoram@UNIPV.IT" target="_blank">paoram@UNIPV.IT</a>>:
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<div>Dear All,</div>
<div>DOM as obligatory marking of Direct Object (DO) is a well-known feature of (South)Italian dialects and other Romance varieties (e.g. Catalan)</div>
<div>I wouldn’t consider<em> Ich gehe durch den Gang</em> as an ex. of DO. As Sergey rightly states, we have here a PP specifying the notion of ‘gehen’.</div>
<div>But when you have <em>Ho visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria</em> ‘I saw Mary’ instead of standard Italian
<em>Ho visto Maria,</em> Catal<em>. </em><font face="Times New Roman"><span><em>les monges<span>
</span>no estimen <u>a</u> les nenes</em><span> <font face="Calibri">‘the nuns don’t lik the girls’,
</font></span></span></font><em>a</em> is a real DO marker and the construction is Nomin./Accus. The use of DOM is subject to certain constraints: the OBJ has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite] etc.</div>
<div>References: A. Ledgeway, <em>From Latin to Romance</em>, OUP 2012.<font face="Batang">
</font><span><font style="font-size:10pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio (2009), La marcatura differenziale dell’oggetto in siciliano antico.<span>
</span></font></span><font style="font-size:10pt"><i><span lang="EN-GB">Arch. Glottol. Ital.</span></i></font><span lang="EN-GB"><font style="font-size:10pt"> 94: 185-<span>
</span>225; <font style="font-size:12pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio</font><font style="font-size:12pt"> and Gerson Klumpp (in preparation).
<em>Differential Object Marking: theoretical and empirical issues</em>. Special issue of
<em>Linguistics</em>.</font></font></span></div>
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<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">All best</div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">Paolo</div>
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<div><b>From:</b> <a title="sergelyosov@INBOX.RU" href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@INBOX.RU" target="_blank">
Sergey Lyosov</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:20 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">
LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: accusative + analytical DO markers</div>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">Dear Ewa,</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">thanks a lot!</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">Your Polish example is as follows:</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">- <span> </span><em>zaatakować</em><span> </span>‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">- <span> </span><em>napaść</em><span> </span>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized allative construction).</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">The cognate Russian verbs have the same government:</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">atakovat' ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span lang="RU">napast' </span>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a NPACC</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span lang="RU"></span> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span>Our colleague Scott T. Shell</span> suggests me (within this thread) a similar example from</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span>German:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Den Mann habe ich gesehen.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">DEF.ACC man AUX 1SG.NOM saw</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">'I say the man.'</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Ich gehe durch den Gang</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">1SG.NOM go through DEF.ACC hallway</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">'I go through the hallway.'</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Yet neither Polish/Russian
</span><em style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">na</em><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> nor German durch are Direct Object Markers pure and simple, they both retain their meanings as lative/locative prepositions.
What I am looking for is a “pure” and (under certain conditions) obligatory Direct Object Marker (like `et in Hebrew) which synchronically has no other (more concrete) meanings. I wonder if this kind of DOM is at all compatible with ACC (which would amount
to double marking of the Direct Object).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I will address your Coptic example in the next email.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> All best,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Sergey</span></p>
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Суббота, 25 мая 2013, 16:37 UTC от "Zakrzewska, E.D." <<a href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aE.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl" target="_blank">E.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl</a>>:<br>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">Dear Sergey,</font></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"> </font>
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<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">A good example is Polish, compare:<span>
</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">-<span style="font:7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">zaatakować</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"> ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC
</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">-<span style="font:7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">napaść</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"> ‘attack, assault’ + preposition
<i>na </i>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized allative construction).</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Another example may be Coptic (Afroasiatic, the final stage of Ancient Egyptian). In Coptic there are two strategies to mark the direct object: head-marking and dependent-marking.
Head-marking involves the use of the so-called </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">construct or pronominal state allomorph of the verb to which a nominal, respectively pronominal direct object is attached. When the
verb appears in the absolute state allomorph, </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">dependent-marking of the object by means of a preposition is required. Several prepositions can occur in this function, of which
<i>n-</i> (dedicated preposition) and <i>e-</i> (grammaticalization of the allative) are most important.<span>
</span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Basic information about Coptic grammar can be found in
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Reintges C.H.,
<i>Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic dialect): a learner's grammar</i>, </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Köln: Köppe, 2004. I’m currently working on a comprehensive article on transitivity in Coptic, to be published in the
<i>Proceedings of the 10th International Congress of Coptic Studies in Rome</i> and I can send you a copy soon.<span>
</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Best regards,</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Ewa Zakrzewska</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
<p> </p>
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<div><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>Van:</b> Discussion List for ALT [<a href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] namens Sergey Lyosov [<a href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>]<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 24 mei 2013 19:35<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> accusative + analytical DO markers<br>
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<p>Dear colleagues, <br>
Do we know of languages that have both the accusative case and analytical direct object markers (pre- or postpositions)?</p>
<p>Lots of thanks, <br>
Sergey</p>
<p>Dr. Sergey Loesov<br>
Oriental Institute<br>
Russian State University for the Humanities<br>
6 Miusskaya pl. Moscow 125267, Russia.</p>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">Eitan Grossman
<div>Lecturer, Department of Linguistics/School of Language Sciences<br>
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<div>Hebrew University of Jerusalem</div>
<div>Tel: +972 2 588 1885</div>
<div>Fax: +972 2 588 0265</div>
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