<HTML><BODY><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"" data-mce-style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';">Dear Paolo,<br> yes, this is correct, but the noun of these Romance varieties lost its inflection for case long ago. It is clear that both Standard Spanish and South Italian developed their famous <em>He visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria/ Ho visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria </em>after the loss of cases. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">You say:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;">The use of DOM is subject to certain constraints: the OBJ has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite] etc.</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";mso-fareast-font-family:
"Times New Roman"" data-mce-style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';"><br> I believe the </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;">[+definite] constraint does not apply at least to Spanish.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;"> With all best wishes,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt;" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;"> Sergey</span></p><br>Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 11:53 +02:00 от Paolo Ramat <paoram@UNIPV.IT>:<br>
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<div>Dear All,</div>
<div>DOM as obligatory marking of Direct Object (DO) is a well-known feature of
(South)Italian dialects and other Romance varieties (e.g. Catalan)</div>
<div>I wouldn’t consider<em> Ich gehe durch den Gang</em> as an ex. of DO. As
Sergey rightly states, we have here a PP specifying the notion of
‘gehen’.</div>
<div>But when you have <em>Ho visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria</em> ‘I saw Mary’
instead of standard Italian <em>Ho visto Maria,</em> Catal<em>. </em><font face="Times New Roman"><span><em>les monges<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>no estimen <u>a</u> les
nenes</em><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> <font face="Calibri">‘the nuns
don’t lik the girls’, </font></span></span></font><em>a</em> is a real DO marker
and the construction is Nomin./Accus. The use of DOM is subject to certain
constraints: the OBJ has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite]
etc.</div>
<div>References: A. Ledgeway, <em>From Latin to Romance</em>, OUP 2012.<font face="Batang"> </font><span style="font-family: ;mso-ansi-language: it;mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-fareast-language: it;mso-bidi-language: ar-sa"><font style="font-size: 10pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio (2009), La marcatura differenziale
dell’oggetto in siciliano antico.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span></font></span><font style="font-size: 10pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: ;mso-ansi-language: en-gb;mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-fareast-language: it;mso-bidi-language: ar-sa">Arch.
Glottol. Ital.</span></i></font><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: ;mso-ansi-language: en-gb;mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-fareast-language: it;mso-bidi-language: ar-sa"><font style="font-size: 10pt"> 94: 185-<span style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</span>225; <font style="font-size: 12pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio</font><font style="font-size: 12pt"> and Gerson Klumpp (in preparation). <em>Differential
Object Marking: theoretical and empirical issues</em>. Special issue of
<em>Linguistics</em>.</font></font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Calibri';color: #000000">All
best</div>
<div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Calibri';color: #000000">Paolo</div>
<div style="font-size: small;font-family: 'Calibri';font-weight: normal;color: #000000;font-style: normal;text-decoration: none;display: inline">
<div style="font: 10pt tahoma">
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div style="background: #f5f5f5">
<div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="sergelyosov@INBOX.RU" href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@INBOX.RU" target="_blank">Sergey Lyosov</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:20 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" href="sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: accusative + analytical DO markers</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
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<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">Dear
Ewa,</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">thanks
a lot!</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">Your
Polish example is as follows:</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">-
<span> </span><em>zaatakować</em><span> </span>‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">-
<span> </span><em>napaść</em><span> </span>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized
allative construction).</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">The
cognate Russian verbs have the same government:</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">atakovat'
‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span lang="RU">napast' </span>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a NPACC</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span lang="RU" data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"></span> </p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">Our
colleague Scott T. Shell</span> suggests me (within this thread) a similar
example from</p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;">German:</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt" data-mce-style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"> </p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Den
Mann habe
ich
gesehen.</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">DEF.ACC
man AUX 1SG.NOM
saw</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">'I say
the man.'</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"></span> </p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Ich
gehe durch
den
Gang</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">1SG.NOM
go through DEF.ACC
hallway</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">'I go
through the hallway.'</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif">Yet neither
Polish/Russian </span><em style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif">na</em><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif"> nor German durch
are Direct Object Markers pure and simple, they both retain their meanings as
lative/locative prepositions. What I am looking for is a “pure” and (under
certain conditions) obligatory Direct Object Marker (like `et in Hebrew) which
synchronically has no other (more concrete) meanings. I wonder if this kind of
DOM is at all compatible with ACC (which would amount to double marking of the
Direct Object).</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">I will
address your Coptic example in the next email.</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
All best,</span></p>
<p data-mce-style="background-position: initial initial;background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif" data-mce-style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">
Sergey</span></p><br><br>Суббота, 25 мая 2013, 16:37 UTC от "Zakrzewska, E.D."
<E.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl>:<br>
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<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">Dear
Sergey,</font></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">A
good example is Polish, compare:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3;tab-stops: list 36.0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">-<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">zaatakować</span></i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">
‘attack, assault’ + NPACC </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt;text-indent: -18pt;mso-list: l2 level1 lfo3;tab-stops: list 36.0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">-<span style="font: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">napaść</span></i><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">
‘attack, assault’ + preposition <i>na </i>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized
allative construction).</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"></span> </p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Another
example may be Coptic (Afroasiatic, the final stage of Ancient Egyptian). In
Coptic there are two strategies to mark the direct object: head-marking and
dependent-marking. Head-marking involves the use of the so-called </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-ansi-language: en-us;mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">construct
or pronominal state allomorph of the verb to which a nominal, respectively
pronominal direct object is attached. When the verb appears in the absolute
state allomorph, </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-ansi-language: en-us;mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">dependent-marking
of the object by means of a preposition is required. Several prepositions can
occur in this function, of which <i>n-</i> (dedicated preposition) and
<i>e-</i> (grammaticalization of the allative) are most important.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Basic
information about Coptic grammar can be found in </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-ansi-language: en-us;mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Reintges
C.H., <i>Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic dialect): a learner's grammar</i>,
</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Köln:
Köppe, 2004. I’m currently working on a comprehensive article on transitivity
in Coptic, to be published in the <i>Proceedings of the 10th International
Congress of Coptic Studies in Rome</i> and I can send you a copy soon.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"></span> </p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Best
regards,</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt">Ewa
Zakrzewska</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman';mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt"></span> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>Van:</b>
Discussion List for ALT [LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org] namens Sergey
Lyosov [sergelyosov@inbox.ru]<br><b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 24 mei 2013
19:35<br><b>To:</b> LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org<br><b>Onderwerp:</b>
accusative + analytical DO markers<br></font><br></div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p>Dear colleagues, <br>Do we know of languages that have both the accusative
case and analytical direct object markers (pre- or postpositions)?</p>
<p>Lots of thanks, <br>Sergey</p>
<p>Dr. Sergey Loesov<br>Oriental Institute<br>Russian State University for the
Humanities<br>6 Miusskaya pl. Moscow 125267, Russia.</p>
<p> </p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><br></div></div></div>
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