<div dir="ltr">In Pieter Muysken's (2008) <i>Functional Categories</i>, he shows an interesting situation in Quechua: borrowed appositions (< Spanish) co-occur with inherited case-markers, e.g., <i>hasta X-kama</i> 'until X-until.' I think Dikker point out similar things for Media Lengua, like Sp. <i>en</i> + inherited locative marker -<i>pi</i>. So, basically double-marking. <div>
<br></div><div>Based on this, one might think that a possible situation that Sergey is looking for might involve a native flag together with a borrowed one. Again, looking at Quechuan, this time Ulcumayo (as described by Sanchez in Lingua 2011 [I think]), there's an example with Sp. origin <i>a</i> together with inherited accusative -<i>ta</i>:<div>
<br></div><div><div><p style="margin:0px;font-size:12px;font-family:Helvetica">Algo gati-pu-n a un niñuta.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:12px;font-family:Helvetica">Dog follow-DIR-3SG to a boy-ACC</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-size:12px;font-family:Helvetica">‘The dog follows a boy’</p></div><div><br></div><div>And in Lamas Kechwa, there are more examples, although the details differ.</div><div><br><div style>While I don't know of any such example that's become an established borrowing in the speech of monolinguals, this does perhaps show how such double flag strategies can get into a language.</div>
<div><p style="margin:0px;font-size:12px;font-family:Helvetica"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font-size:12px;font-family:Helvetica"><br></p><div>
<br></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Sergey Lyosov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><br>Dear Anvita,<br>Thinking about your example:<div class="im"><br><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">u Tong-bi ara=pho</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">
3sg tree-acc obj=cut</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">'He cut the tree' (fell to the ground)</div></div><div><br>Is <span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">ara= a true Dir. Obj. Marker in the strictest sence of the word? Is it not a trivial resumptive pronoun, in the way of the Latin American Spanish "</span>lo golpeó a usted"?<br>
<br> Sergey</div><br>Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 22:49 +05:30 от Anvita Abbi <<a href="mailto:anvitaabbi@gmail.com" target="_blank">anvitaabbi@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid #0857a6;margin:10px;padding:0 0 0 10px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><div class="im"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Present Great Andamanese has overt case marking such as accusative as well as object marking in the form of proclitics attached to the verbs. In fact there are several types of object clitics, depending upon the nature of the object. Thus,</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">u Tong-bi ara=pho</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">
3sg tree-acc obj=cut</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">'He cut the tree' (fell to the ground)</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">u com-bi ut=pho</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">3sg betel-acc obj=cut</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">'He cut the betel nut (from its branch)' (separated from the source)</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">u com-bi ara=pho</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">3sg. betel-acc obj= cut</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">'He cut the betel nut.' (cut it into pieces)</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><br></span></i></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">p</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'">H</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">e</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'">ÿ</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">i-bi ik=t</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'">E</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">r=</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'"> </span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">lo-k-e</span></i></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">box-<span style="font-variant:small-caps">acc obj=</span></span><span lang="DE" style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-variant:small-caps"> cl</span><span style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-variant:small-caps">2=</span><span style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">send-<span style="font-variant:small-caps">fa-imp</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-size:12pt;text-indent:36pt">‘Send
the box.’</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Anvita</div></div></div><div><div><div class="h5"><br><br><div>On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Sergey Lyosov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>No-no, I believe the function of ET/OT in Hebrew (especially in Biblical Hebrew) is not the double marking I am looking for (analytical DOM + ACC case ending), et/ot is a host for bound accusative pronouns and thus an alternative to accusative pronouns hosted directly on the verb: ra'iti OTO = re'itiW "I saw him"<br>
<br>Sergey<br><br><br>Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 21:08 +09:00 от David Gil <<a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3agil@EVA.MPG.DE" target="_blank">gil@EVA.MPG.DE</a>>:<div><div><br>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid #0857a6;margin:10px;padding:0 0 0 10px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
If you include pronouns in the scope of the query, then Hebrew also
has doubly-case-marked forms such as<br>
<br>
ot=i ACC=PREP.1SG<br>
ot=xa ACC=PREP.2SGM<br>
ot=ax ACC=PREP.2SGF<br>
etc.<br>
<br>
However, as suggested by the interlinear gloss "PREP", the
pronominal enclitics aren't really accusatives, but rather
non-nominative, or "prepositional" forms, which occur after other
prepositions as well, such as l- 'to', b- 'in' / 'instrumental' and
others, eg.<br>
<br>
l=i to=PREP.1SG <br>
l(e)=xa to=PREP.2SGM<br>
l=ax to=PREP.2SGF<br>
etc.<br>
<br>
This seems very similar to what José describes for Spanish, and not
quite what Sergey is looking for.<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 26/05/2013 19:58, "José M.
García-Miguel" wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>As Paolo says, DOM is a well-kown
feature of some Romance languages giving place to prepositional
marking of some Direct Objects. <br>
But, I guess that the examples proposed by Paolo do not qualify
as "having both the accusative case and analytical direct object
markers (pre- or postpositions)", that Sergey was looking for.
Nouns do not vary for case, and I would not say that <i>Maria </i>is
accusative [case] in <i>Ho visto a Maria.<br>
</i>However, personal independent pronouns and pronominal
clitics do vary for case: Spanish <i>yo </i>[Nominative]<i> </i>'I'
vs <i>mí </i>[not-Nominative, prepositional case] 'me' vs <i>me</i>
[1sg clitic], and in 3rd person clitics Accusative <i>lo(s),
la(s) </i>vs Dative <i>le(s)<br>
</i>Thus<i>, </i>in<i> </i>Sp.<i> </i><i>Me ha visto a mi </i>'(s)he
has seen me', the object is expressed by 1sg clitic <i>me</i>,
the preposition <i>a</i>, and the non-Nominative <i>mi<br>
<br>
</i>A<i> </i>3rd person accusative clitic is compatible with an
<i>a</i>-marked Directo Object in the same clause (this is a
common pattern in some varieties of Spanish, mainly Buenos Aires
Sp., and less common in other varieties):<br>
<br>
<i>La he visto a Maria </i><br>
3.ACC.F have seen PREP Maria<br>
'I have seen Maria'<i><br>
</i><br>
This example has "both the accusative case [in the clitic <i>la</i>]
and an analytical direct object marker [preposition <i>a</i>]",
but the accusative case is not in the name <i>Maria.</i> <br>
<br>
All best,<br>
Jose M. Garcia-Miguel<br>
University of Vigo<br>
<br>
El 26/05/2013 11:53, Paolo Ramat escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">
<div>Dear All,</div>
<div>DOM as obligatory marking of Direct Object (DO) is a
well-known feature of (South)Italian dialects and other
Romance varieties (e.g. Catalan)</div>
<div>I wouldn’t consider<em> Ich gehe durch den Gang</em> as
an ex. of DO. As Sergey rightly states, we have here a PP
specifying the notion of ‘gehen’.</div>
<div>But when you have <em>Ho visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria</em>
‘I saw Mary’ instead of standard Italian <em>Ho visto
Maria,</em> Catal<em>. </em><font face="Times New
Roman"><span><em>les monges<span> </span>no estimen <u>a</u> les nenes</em><span> <font face="Calibri">‘the
nuns don’t lik the girls’, </font></span></span></font><em>a</em>
is a real DO marker and the construction is Nomin./Accus.
The use of DOM is subject to certain constraints: the OBJ
has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite] etc.</div>
<div>References: A. Ledgeway, <em>From Latin to Romance</em>,
OUP 2012.<font face="Batang"> </font><span><font style="font-size:10pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio (2009), La
marcatura differenziale dell’oggetto in siciliano
antico.<span> </span></font></span><font style="font-size:10pt"><i><span lang="EN-GB">Arch. Glottol. Ital.</span></i></font><span lang="EN-GB"><font style="font-size:10pt"> 94: 185-<span> </span>225; <font style="font-size:12pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio</font><font style="font-size:12pt"> and Gerson Klumpp (in
preparation). <em>Differential Object Marking:
theoretical and empirical issues</em>. Special
issue of <em>Linguistics</em>.</font></font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">All best</div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">Paolo</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:small;display:inline;text-decoration:none;font-family:'Calibri';font-weight:normal">
<div style="font:10pt tahoma">
<div> </div>
<div style="background:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="sergelyosov@INBOX.RU" href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@INBOX.RU" target="_blank">Sergey Lyosov</a>
</div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:20 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>
</div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: accusative + analytical DO
markers</div>
</div>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:small;display:inline;text-decoration:none;font-family:'Calibri';font-weight:normal"><br>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">Dear Ewa,</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">thanks a lot!</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">Your Polish example
is as follows:</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">- <span> </span><em>zaatakować</em><span> </span>‘attack,
assault’ + NPACC</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">- <span> </span><em>napaść</em><span> </span>‘attack,
assault’ + preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a
NPACC (a grammaticalized allative construction).</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">The
cognate Russian verbs have the same government:</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">atakovat'
‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span lang="RU">napast' </span>‘attack, assault’ +
preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a
NPACC</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span lang="RU"></span> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span>Our colleague
Scott T. Shell</span> suggests me (within this thread)
a similar example from</p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span>German:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Den
Mann habe ich gesehen.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">DEF.ACC
man AUX 1SG.NOM saw</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">'I say the
man.'</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Ich
gehe durch den Gang</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">1SG.NOM
go through DEF.ACC hallway</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">'I go through
the hallway.'</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Yet neither Polish/Russian </span><em style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">na</em><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> nor German
durch are Direct Object Markers pure and simple, they
both retain their meanings as lative/locative
prepositions. What I am looking for is a “pure” and
(under certain conditions) obligatory Direct Object
Marker (like `et in Hebrew) which synchronically has
no other (more concrete) meanings. I wonder if this
kind of DOM is at all compatible with ACC (which would
amount to double marking of the Direct Object).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I will address
your Coptic example in the next email.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> All best,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Sergey</span></p>
<br>
<br>
Суббота, 25 мая 2013, 16:37 UTC от "Zakrzewska, E.D." <a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aE.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl" target="_blank"><E.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl></a>:<br>
<blockquote style="padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;padding-left:10px;margin:10px;border-left:#0857a6 1px solid;padding-right:0px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="direction:ltr;font-size:10pt;font-family:tahoma">
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Dear
Sergey,</font></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">A good example is Polish, compare:<span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">-<span style="font:7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">zaatakować</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"> ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC </span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">-<span style="font:7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </span></span><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">napaść</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"> ‘attack, assault’ + preposition <i>na
</i>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized
allative construction).</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Another example may be Coptic
(Afroasiatic, the final stage of Ancient
Egyptian). In Coptic there are two
strategies to mark the direct object:
head-marking and dependent-marking.
Head-marking involves the use of the
so-called </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'" lang="EN-US">construct
or pronominal state allomorph of the verb
to which a nominal, respectively
pronominal direct object is attached. When
the verb appears in the absolute state
allomorph, </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'" lang="EN-US">dependent-marking
of the object by means of a preposition is
required. Several prepositions can occur
in this function, of which <i>n-</i>
(dedicated preposition) and <i>e-</i>
(grammaticalization of the allative) are
most important.<span> </span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"><span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Basic information about Coptic
grammar can be found in </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'" lang="EN-US">Reintges C.H., <i>Coptic
Egyptian (Sahidic dialect): a learner's
grammar</i>, </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Köln: Köppe, 2004. I’m currently
working on a comprehensive article on
transitivity in Coptic, to be published in
the <i>Proceedings of the 10th
International Congress of Coptic Studies
in Rome</i> and I can send you a copy
soon.<span> </span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Best regards,</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Ewa Zakrzewska</span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<hr>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>Van:</b>
Discussion List for ALT [<a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
namens Sergey Lyosov [<a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>]<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 24 mei 2013
19:35<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> accusative + analytical
DO markers<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div>
<p>Dear colleagues, <br>
Do we know of languages that have both the
accusative case and analytical direct
object markers (pre- or postpositions)?</p>
<p>Lots of thanks, <br>
Sergey</p>
<p>Dr. Sergey Loesov<br>
Oriental Institute<br>
Russian State University for the
Humanities<br>
6 Miusskaya pl. Moscow 125267, Russia.</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550119
Email: <a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3agil@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage: <a href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/" target="_blank">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>
</pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div></div></div><div class="im">-- <br><div>Prof. Anvita Abbi</div>
<div>Centre for Linguistics</div>
<div>School of Language, Literature and Culture Studies</div>
<div>Jawaharlal Nehru University</div>
<div>New Delhi 110067</div>
<div><a href="http://www.andamanese.net/" target="_blank">www.andamanese.net</a></div>
<div>President: Linguistic Society of India<br>URL: <a href="http://www.jnu.ac.in/FacultyStaff/ShowProfile.asp?SendUserName=anvita" target="_blank">http://www.jnu.ac.in/FacultyStaff/ShowProfile.asp?SendUserName=anvita</a><br>
<br><br><br></div>
</div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Eitan Grossman<div>Lecturer, Department of Linguistics/School of Language Sciences<br></div><div>Hebrew University of Jerusalem</div><div>Tel: +972 2 588 1885</div>
<div>Fax: +972 2 588 0265</div></div>
</div>