<HTML><BODY><br>In other words, does the obj. marker (in this example, <span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif; font-size: small;" data-mce-style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif; font-size: small;">ara=</span>) agree with the object in a syntactical agreement category (say, gender or person)?<br>  Sergey<br>  <br><br>Понедельник, 27 мая 2013, 20:25 +04:00 от Sergey Lyosov <sergelyosov@inbox.ru>:<br>
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<br>Dear Anvita,<br>Thinking about your example:<br><div style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;font-size: small;" data-mce-style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;font-size: small;">u        Tong-bi     ara=pho</div><div style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;font-size: small;" data-mce-style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;font-size: small;">3sg     tree-acc    obj=cut</div><div style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;font-size: small;" data-mce-style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;font-size: small;">'He cut the tree' (fell to the ground)</div><div><br>Is <span style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;font-size: small;" data-mce-style="font-family: verdana, sans-serif;font-size: small;">ara= a true Dir. Obj. Marker in the strictest sence of the word? Is it not a trivial resumptive pronoun, in the way of the Latin American Spanish "</span>lo golpeó a usted"?<br>  <br>          Sergey</div><br>Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 22:49 +05:30 от Anvita Abbi <anvitaabbi@gmail.com>:<br>
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                        <div id="style_13695887550000000275_BODY"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Present Great Andamanese has overt case marking such as accusative as well as object marking in the form of proclitics attached to the verbs. In fact there are several types of object clitics, depending upon the nature of the object. Thus,</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">u        Tong-bi     ara=pho</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">
3sg     tree-acc    obj=cut</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">'He cut the tree' (fell to the ground)</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">u      com-bi      ut=pho</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">3sg   betel-acc  obj=cut</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">'He cut the betel nut (from its branch)' (separated from the source)</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">u     com-bi      ara=pho</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">3sg. betel-acc  obj= cut</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">'He cut the betel nut.' (cut it into pieces)</div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><br></span></i></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">p</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'">H</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">e</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'">ÿ</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">i-bi             ik=t</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'">E</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">r=</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'"></span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">lo-k-e</span></i></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">box-<span style="font-variant:small-caps">acc           obj=</span></span><span lang="DE" style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-variant:small-caps"> cl</span><span style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-variant:small-caps">2=</span><span style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">send-<span style="font-variant:small-caps">fa-imp</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-size:12pt;text-indent:36pt">‘Send
the box.’</span></div><div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Anvita</div></div><div><br><br><div>On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Sergey Lyosov <span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div>No-no, I believe the function of ET/OT in Hebrew (especially in Biblical Hebrew) is not the double marking I am looking for (analytical DOM + ACC case ending), et/ot is a host for bound accusative pronouns and thus an alternative to accusative pronouns hosted directly on the verb: ra'iti OTO = re'itiW "I saw him"<br>
  <br>Sergey<br><br><br>Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 21:08 +09:00 от David Gil <<a target="_blank">gil@EVA.MPG.DE</a>>:<div><div><br>
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    If you include pronouns in the scope of the query, then Hebrew also
    has doubly-case-marked forms such as<br>
    <br>
    ot=i ACC=PREP.1SG<br>
    ot=xa ACC=PREP.2SGM<br>
    ot=ax ACC=PREP.2SGF<br>
    etc.<br>
    <br>
    However, as suggested by the interlinear gloss "PREP", the
    pronominal enclitics aren't really accusatives, but rather
    non-nominative, or "prepositional" forms, which occur after other
    prepositions as well, such as l- 'to', b- 'in' / 'instrumental' and
    others, eg.<br>
    <br>
    l=i to=PREP.1SG  <br>
    l(e)=xa to=PREP.2SGM<br>
    l=ax to=PREP.2SGF<br>
    etc.<br>
    <br>
    This seems very similar to what José describes for Spanish, and not
    quite what Sergey is looking for.<br>
    <br>
    David<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div>On 26/05/2013 19:58, "José M.
      García-Miguel" wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div>As Paolo says, DOM is a well-kown
        feature of some Romance languages giving place to prepositional
        marking of some Direct Objects. <br>
        But, I guess that the examples proposed by Paolo do not qualify
        as "having both the accusative case and analytical direct object
        markers (pre- or postpositions)", that Sergey was looking for.
        Nouns do not vary for case, and I would not say that <i>Maria </i>is

        accusative [case] in <i>Ho visto a Maria.<br>
        </i>However, personal independent pronouns and pronominal
        clitics do vary for case: Spanish <i>yo </i>[Nominative]<i> </i>'I'
        vs <i>mí </i>[not-Nominative, prepositional case] 'me' vs <i>me</i>
        [1sg clitic], and in 3rd person clitics Accusative <i>lo(s),
          la(s)  </i>vs Dative <i>le(s)<br>
        </i>Thus<i>, </i>in<i> </i>Sp.<i> </i><i>Me ha visto a mi </i>'(s)he

        has seen me', the object is expressed by 1sg clitic <i>me</i>, 
        the preposition <i>a</i>, and the non-Nominative <i>mi<br>
          <br>
        </i>A<i> </i>3rd person accusative clitic is compatible with an
        <i>a</i>-marked Directo Object in the same clause (this is a
        common pattern in some varieties of Spanish, mainly Buenos Aires
        Sp.,  and less common in other varieties):<br>
        <br>
        <i>La          he     visto a       Maria   </i><br>
        3.ACC.F have seen PREP Maria<br>
        'I have seen Maria'<i><br>
        </i><br>
        This example has "both the accusative case [in the clitic <i>la</i>]
        and an analytical direct object marker [preposition <i>a</i>]",
        but the accusative case is not in the name <i>Maria.</i> <br>
        <br>
        All best,<br>
        Jose M. Garcia-Miguel<br>
        University of Vigo<br>
        <br>
        El 26/05/2013 11:53, Paolo Ramat escribió:<br>
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            <div>Dear All,</div>
            <div>DOM as obligatory marking of Direct Object (DO) is a
              well-known feature of (South)Italian dialects and other
              Romance varieties (e.g. Catalan)</div>
            <div>I wouldn’t consider<em> Ich gehe durch den Gang</em> as
              an ex. of DO. As Sergey rightly states, we have here a PP 
              specifying the notion of ‘gehen’.</div>
            <div>But when you have <em>Ho visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria</em>
              ‘I saw Mary’ instead of standard Italian <em>Ho visto
                Maria,</em> Catal<em>. </em><font face="Times New
                Roman"><span><em>les monges<span>   </span>no estimen <u>a</u> les nenes</em><span>  <font face="Calibri">‘the

                      nuns don’t lik the girls’, </font></span></span></font><em>a</em>
              is a real DO marker and the construction is Nomin./Accus.
              The use of DOM is subject to certain constraints: the OBJ
              has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite] etc.</div>
            <div>References: A. Ledgeway, <em>From Latin to Romance</em>,
              OUP 2012.<font face="Batang"> </font><span><font style="font-size:10pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio (2009), La
                  marcatura differenziale dell’oggetto in siciliano
                  antico.<span>  </span></font></span><font style="font-size:10pt"><i><span lang="EN-GB">Arch. Glottol. Ital.</span></i></font><span lang="EN-GB"><font style="font-size:10pt"> 94: 185-<span>  </span>225; <font style="font-size:12pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio</font><font style="font-size:12pt"> and Gerson Klumpp (in
                    preparation). <em>Differential Object Marking:
                      theoretical and empirical issues</em>. Special
                    issue of <em>Linguistics</em>.</font></font></span></div>
            <div> </div>
            <div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">All best</div>
            <div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">Paolo</div>
            <div style="font-style:normal;font-size:small;display:inline;text-decoration:none;font-family:'Calibri';font-weight:normal">
              <div style="font:10pt tahoma">
                <div> </div>
                <div style="background:#f5f5f5">
                  <div><b>From:</b> <a title="sergelyosov@INBOX.RU" href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@INBOX.RU" target="_blank">Sergey Lyosov</a>
                  </div>
                  <div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:20 PM</div>
                  <div><b>To:</b> <a title="LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>
                  </div>
                  <div><b>Subject:</b> Re: accusative + analytical DO
                    markers</div>
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              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">Dear Ewa,</p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">thanks a lot!</p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt">Your Polish example
                is as follows:</p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"> </p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">-        <span> </span><em>zaatakować</em><span> </span>‘attack,
                assault’ + NPACC</p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">-        <span> </span><em>napaść</em><span> </span>‘attack,
                assault’ + preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a
                NPACC (a grammaticalized allative construction).</p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">The
                cognate Russian verbs have the same government:</p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt">atakovat'
                ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span lang="RU">napast' </span>‘attack, assault’ +
                preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a
                NPACC</p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span lang="RU"></span> </p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span>Our colleague
                  Scott T. Shell</span> suggests me (within this thread)
                a similar example from</p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span>German:</span></p>
              <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"> </p>
              <p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif">Den           
                  Mann    habe    ich                gesehen.</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif">DEF.ACC 
                  man      AUX   1SG.NOM   saw</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif">'I say the
                  man.'</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif"></span> </p>
              <p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif">Ich                
                  gehe   durch     den               Gang</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif">1SG.NOM   
                  go       through  DEF.ACC    hallway</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif">'I go through
                  the hallway.'</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif">Yet neither Polish/Russian </span><em style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif">na</em><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> nor German
                  durch are Direct Object Markers pure and simple, they
                  both retain their meanings as lative/locative
                  prepositions. What I am looking for is a “pure” and
                  (under certain conditions) obligatory Direct Object
                  Marker (like `et in Hebrew) which synchronically has
                  no other (more concrete) meanings. I wonder if this
                  kind of DOM is at all compatible with ACC (which would
                  amount to double marking of the Direct Object).</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif">I will address
                  your Coptic example in the next email.</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif">  All best,</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New                  Roman',serif">  Sergey</span></p>
              <br>
              <br>
              Суббота, 25 мая 2013, 16:37 UTC от "Zakrzewska, E.D." <a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aE.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl" target="_blank"><E.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl></a>:<br>
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                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Dear
                              Sergey,</font></p>
                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">  </font></font></p>
                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">A good example is Polish, compare:<span>  </span></span></p>
                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">-<span style="font:7pt 'Times New                                Roman'">         </span></span><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">zaatakować</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"> ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC </span></p>

                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">-<span style="font:7pt 'Times New                                Roman'">         </span></span><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">napaść</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"> ‘attack, assault’ + preposition <i>na
                              </i>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized
                              allative construction).</span></p>
                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Another example may be Coptic
                              (Afroasiatic, the final stage of Ancient
                              Egyptian). In Coptic there are two
                              strategies to mark the direct object:
                              head-marking and dependent-marking.
                              Head-marking involves the use of the
                              so-called </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'" lang="EN-US">construct

                              or pronominal state allomorph of the verb
                              to which a nominal, respectively
                              pronominal direct object is attached. When
                              the verb appears in the absolute state
                              allomorph, </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'" lang="EN-US">dependent-marking

                              of the object by means of a preposition is
                              required. Several prepositions can occur
                              in this function, of which <i>n-</i>
                              (dedicated preposition) and <i>e-</i>
                              (grammaticalization of the allative) are
                              most important.<span>  </span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"><span> </span></span></p>
                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Basic information about Coptic
                              grammar can be found in </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'" lang="EN-US">Reintges C.H., <i>Coptic
                                Egyptian (Sahidic dialect): a learner's
                                grammar</i>, </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Köln: Köppe, 2004. I’m currently
                              working on a comprehensive article on
                              transitivity in Coptic, to be published in
                              the <i>Proceedings of the 10th
                                International Congress of Coptic Studies
                                in Rome</i> and I can send you a copy
                              soon.<span>  </span></span></p>
                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Best regards,</span></p>
                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Ewa Zakrzewska</span></p>
                          <p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
                          <p> </p>
                          <p> </p>
                          <hr>
                          <div><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>Van:</b>
                              Discussion List for ALT [<a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
                              namens Sergey Lyosov [<a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>]<br>
                              <b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 24 mei 2013
                              19:35<br>
                              <b>To:</b> <a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
                              <b>Onderwerp:</b> accusative + analytical
                              DO markers<br>
                            </font><br>
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                            <p>Dear colleagues, <br>
                              Do we know of languages that have both the
                              accusative case and analytical direct
                              object markers (pre- or postpositions)?</p>
                            <p>Lots of thanks, <br>
                              Sergey</p>
                            <p>Dr. Sergey Loesov<br>
                              Oriental Institute<br>
                              Russian State University for the
                              Humanities<br>
                              6 Miusskaya pl. Moscow 125267, Russia.</p>
                            <p> </p>
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    <br>
    <pre cols="72">-- 
David Gil

Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany

Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550119
Email: <a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3agil@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage:  <a href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/" target="_blank">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>

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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div>Prof. Anvita Abbi</div>
<div>Centre for Linguistics</div>
<div>School of Language, Literature and Culture Studies</div>
<div>Jawaharlal Nehru University</div>
<div>New Delhi 110067</div>
<div><a href="http://www.andamanese.net/" target="_blank">www.andamanese.net</a></div>
<div>President: Linguistic Society of India<br>URL: <a href="http://www.jnu.ac.in/FacultyStaff/ShowProfile.asp?SendUserName=anvita" target="_blank">http://www.jnu.ac.in/FacultyStaff/ShowProfile.asp?SendUserName=anvita</a><br>
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