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Some of the facts of double-marking are reminiscent (on one particular perspective of the phenomena) of clitic-doubling and the relationship between clitics and affixes.
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<div>I discuss one approach to the issue in Why there are no clitics: <a href="http://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/001680">http://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/001680</a></div>
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<div>Dan</div>
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<div>On May 27, 2013, at 2:48 PM, Eitan Grossman wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">In Pieter Muysken's (2008) <i>Functional Categories</i>, he shows an interesting situation in Quechua: borrowed appositions (< Spanish) co-occur with inherited case-markers, e.g.,
<i>hasta X-kama</i> 'until X-until.' I think Dikker point out similar things for Media Lengua, like Sp.
<i>en</i> + inherited locative marker -<i>pi</i>. So, basically double-marking.
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<div>Based on this, one might think that a possible situation that Sergey is looking for might involve a native flag together with a borrowed one. Again, looking at Quechuan, this time Ulcumayo (as described by Sanchez in Lingua 2011 [I think]), there's an
example with Sp. origin <i>a</i> together with inherited accusative -<i>ta</i>:
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Algo gati-pu-n a un niñuta.</div>
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Dog follow-DIR-3SG to a boy-ACC</div>
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‘The dog follows a boy’</div>
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<div>And in Lamas Kechwa, there are more examples, although the details differ.</div>
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<div style="">While I don't know of any such example that's become an established borrowing in the speech of monolinguals, this does perhaps show how such double flag strategies can get into a language.</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Sergey Lyosov <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:sergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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Dear Anvita,<br>
Thinking about your example:
<div class="im"><br>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">u Tong-bi ara=pho</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">3sg tree-acc obj=cut</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">'He cut the tree' (fell to the ground)</div>
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Is <span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">ara= a true Dir. Obj. Marker in the strictest sence of the word? Is it not a trivial resumptive pronoun, in the way of the Latin American Spanish "</span>lo golpeó a usted"?<br>
<br>
Sergey</div>
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Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 22:49 +05:30 от Anvita Abbi <<a href="mailto:anvitaabbi@gmail.com" target="_blank">anvitaabbi@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
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<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Present Great Andamanese has overt case marking such as accusative as well as object marking in the form of proclitics attached to the verbs. In fact there are several types of object clitics, depending
upon the nature of the object. Thus,</div>
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<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">u Tong-bi ara=pho</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">3sg tree-acc obj=cut</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">'He cut the tree' (fell to the ground)</div>
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<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">u com-bi ut=pho</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">3sg betel-acc obj=cut</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">'He cut the betel nut (from its branch)' (separated from the source)</div>
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<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">u com-bi ara=pho</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">3sg. betel-acc obj= cut</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">'He cut the betel nut.' (cut it into pieces)</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><br>
</span></i></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">p</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'">H</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">e</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'">ÿ</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">i-bi
ik=t</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'">E</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">r=</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'SILDoulos IPA93'">
</span></i><i style="text-indent:36pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">lo-k-e</span></i></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">box-<span style="font-variant:small-caps">acc obj=</span></span><span lang="DE" style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-variant:small-caps">
cl</span><span style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-variant:small-caps">2=</span><span style="text-indent:36pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">send-<span style="font-variant:small-caps">fa-imp</span></span></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-size:12pt;text-indent:36pt">‘Send the box.’</span></div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Anvita</div>
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<div>On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Sergey Lyosov <span dir="ltr"><<a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div>No-no, I believe the function of ET/OT in Hebrew (especially in Biblical Hebrew) is not the double marking I am looking for (analytical DOM + ACC case ending), et/ot is a host for bound accusative pronouns and thus an alternative to accusative pronouns
hosted directly on the verb: ra'iti OTO = re'itiW "I saw him"<br>
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Sergey<br>
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Воскресенье, 26 мая 2013, 21:08 +09:00 от David Gil <<a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3agil@EVA.MPG.DE" target="_blank">gil@EVA.MPG.DE</a>>:
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<div>If you include pronouns in the scope of the query, then Hebrew also has doubly-case-marked forms such as<br>
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ot=i ACC=PREP.1SG<br>
ot=xa ACC=PREP.2SGM<br>
ot=ax ACC=PREP.2SGF<br>
etc.<br>
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However, as suggested by the interlinear gloss "PREP", the pronominal enclitics aren't really accusatives, but rather non-nominative, or "prepositional" forms, which occur after other prepositions as well, such as l- 'to', b- 'in' / 'instrumental' and others,
eg.<br>
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l=i to=PREP.1SG <br>
l(e)=xa to=PREP.2SGM<br>
l=ax to=PREP.2SGF<br>
etc.<br>
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This seems very similar to what José describes for Spanish, and not quite what Sergey is looking for.<br>
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David<br>
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<div>On 26/05/2013 19:58, "José M. García-Miguel" wrote:<br>
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<div>As Paolo says, DOM is a well-kown feature of some Romance languages giving place to prepositional marking of some Direct Objects.
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But, I guess that the examples proposed by Paolo do not qualify as "having both the accusative case and analytical direct object markers (pre- or postpositions)", that Sergey was looking for. Nouns do not vary for case, and I would not say that
<i>Maria </i>is accusative [case] in <i>Ho visto a Maria.<br>
</i>However, personal independent pronouns and pronominal clitics do vary for case: Spanish
<i>yo </i>[Nominative]<i> </i>'I' vs <i>mí </i>[not-Nominative, prepositional case] 'me' vs
<i>me</i> [1sg clitic], and in 3rd person clitics Accusative <i>lo(s), la(s) </i>
vs Dative <i>le(s)<br>
</i>Thus<i>, </i>in<i> </i>Sp.<i> </i><i>Me ha visto a mi </i>'(s)he has seen me', the object is expressed by 1sg clitic
<i>me</i>, the preposition <i>a</i>, and the non-Nominative <i>mi<br>
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</i>A<i> </i>3rd person accusative clitic is compatible with an <i>a</i>-marked Directo Object in the same clause (this is a common pattern in some varieties of Spanish, mainly Buenos Aires Sp., and less common in other varieties):<br>
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<i>La he visto a Maria </i><br>
3.ACC.F have seen PREP Maria<br>
'I have seen Maria'<i><br>
</i><br>
This example has "both the accusative case [in the clitic <i>la</i>] and an analytical direct object marker [preposition
<i>a</i>]", but the accusative case is not in the name <i>Maria.</i> <br>
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All best,<br>
Jose M. Garcia-Miguel<br>
University of Vigo<br>
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El 26/05/2013 11:53, Paolo Ramat escribió:<br>
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<div>Dear All,</div>
<div>DOM as obligatory marking of Direct Object (DO) is a well-known feature of (South)Italian dialects and other Romance varieties (e.g. Catalan)</div>
<div>I wouldn’t consider<em> Ich gehe durch den Gang</em> as an ex. of DO. As Sergey rightly states, we have here a PP specifying the notion of ‘gehen’.</div>
<div>But when you have <em>Ho visto <u>a</u></em> <em>Maria</em> ‘I saw Mary’ instead of standard Italian
<em>Ho visto Maria,</em> Catal<em>. </em><font face="Times New
Roman"><span><em>les monges<span>
</span>no estimen <u>a</u> les nenes</em><span> <font face="Calibri">‘the nuns don’t lik the girls’,
</font></span></span></font><em>a</em> is a real DO marker and the construction is Nomin./Accus. The use of DOM is subject to certain constraints: the OBJ has to be [+human] or, at least, [+anim],[+definite] etc.</div>
<div>References: A. Ledgeway, <em>From Latin to Romance</em>, OUP 2012.<font face="Batang">
</font><span><font style="font-size:10pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio (2009), La marcatura differenziale dell’oggetto in siciliano antico.<span>
</span></font></span><font style="font-size:10pt"><i><span lang="EN-GB">Arch. Glottol. Ital.</span></i></font><span lang="EN-GB"><font style="font-size:10pt"> 94: 185-<span>
</span>225; <font style="font-size:12pt">Iemmolo, Giorgio</font><font style="font-size:12pt"> and Gerson Klumpp (in preparation).
<em>Differential Object Marking: theoretical and empirical issues</em>. Special issue of
<em>Linguistics</em>.</font></font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">All best</div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Calibri'">Paolo</div>
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<div> </div>
<div style="background:#f5f5f5">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="sergelyosov@INBOX.RU" href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@INBOX.RU" target="_blank">
Sergey Lyosov</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 25, 2013 9:20 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">
LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: accusative + analytical DO markers</div>
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Dear Ewa,</div>
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thanks a lot!</div>
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Your Polish example is as follows:</div>
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<div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 36pt; ">
- <span> </span><em>zaatakować</em><span> </span>‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 36pt; ">
- <span> </span><em>napaść</em><span> </span>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized allative construction).</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 36pt; ">
The cognate Russian verbs have the same government:</div>
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atakovat' ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 36pt; ">
<span lang="RU">napast' </span>‘attack, assault’ + preposition<span> </span><em>na<span> </span></em>with a NPACC</div>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"><span lang="RU"></span> </p>
<div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 36pt; ">
<span>Our colleague Scott T. Shell</span> suggests me (within this thread) a similar example from</div>
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<span>German:</span></div>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt 36pt"> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Den Mann habe ich gesehen.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">DEF.ACC man AUX 1SG.NOM saw</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">'I say the man.'</span></p>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"></span> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Ich gehe durch den Gang</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">1SG.NOM go through DEF.ACC hallway</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">'I go through the hallway.'</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Yet neither Polish/Russian
</span><em style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">na</em><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> nor German durch are Direct Object Markers pure and simple, they both retain their meanings as lative/locative
prepositions. What I am looking for is a “pure” and (under certain conditions) obligatory Direct Object Marker (like `et in Hebrew) which synchronically has no other (more concrete) meanings. I wonder if this kind of DOM is at all compatible with ACC (which
would amount to double marking of the Direct Object).</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I will address your Coptic example in the next email.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> All best,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> Sergey</span></p>
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<br>
Суббота, 25 мая 2013, 16:37 UTC от "Zakrzewska, E.D." <a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aE.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl" target="_blank">
<E.D.Zakrzewska@uva.nl></a>:<br>
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<font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Dear Sergey,</font></div>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"> </font>
</font></p>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">A good example is Polish, compare:<span>
</span></span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 36pt; ">
<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">-<span style="font:7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">zaatakować</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"> ‘attack, assault’ + NPACC
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 36pt; ">
<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">-<span style="font:7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</span></span><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">napaść</span></i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"> ‘attack, assault’ + preposition
<i>na </i>with a NPACC (a grammaticalized allative construction).</span></div>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
<div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; ">
<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Another example may be Coptic (Afroasiatic, the final stage of Ancient Egyptian). In Coptic there are two strategies to mark the direct object: head-marking and dependent-marking. Head-marking involves
the use of the so-called </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'" lang="EN-US">construct or pronominal state allomorph of the verb to which a nominal, respectively pronominal direct object is attached. When the verb appears in the
absolute state allomorph, </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'" lang="EN-US">dependent-marking of the object by means of a preposition is required. Several prepositions can occur in this function, of which
<i>n-</i> (dedicated preposition) and <i>e-</i> (grammaticalization of the allative) are most important.<span>
</span></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"><span> </span></span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0cm; ">
<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Basic information about Coptic grammar can be found in
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'" lang="EN-US">Reintges C.H.,
<i>Coptic Egyptian (Sahidic dialect): a learner's grammar</i>, </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Köln: Köppe, 2004. I’m currently working on a comprehensive article on transitivity in Coptic, to be published in the
<i>Proceedings of the 10th International Congress of Coptic Studies in Rome</i> and I can send you a copy soon.<span>
</span></span></div>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Best regards,</span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'">Ewa Zakrzewska</span></div>
<p style="margin:0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span> </p>
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<div><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>Van:</b> Discussion List for ALT [<a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] namens Sergey Lyosov [<a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3asergelyosov@inbox.ru" target="_blank">sergelyosov@inbox.ru</a>]<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 24 mei 2013 19:35<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3aLINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">
LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> accusative + analytical DO markers<br>
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<p>Dear colleagues, <br>
Do we know of languages that have both the accusative case and analytical direct object markers (pre- or postpositions)?</p>
<p>Lots of thanks, <br>
Sergey</p>
<p>Dr. Sergey Loesov<br>
Oriental Institute<br>
Russian State University for the Humanities<br>
6 Miusskaya pl. Moscow 125267, Russia.</p>
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<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550119
Email: <a href="https://e.mail.ru/sentmsg?mailto=mailto%3agil@eva.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@eva.mpg.de</a>
Webpage: <a href="http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/" target="_blank">http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/</a>
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<div>Prof. Anvita Abbi</div>
<div>Centre for Linguistics</div>
<div>School of Language, Literature and Culture Studies</div>
<div>Jawaharlal Nehru University</div>
<div>New Delhi 110067</div>
<div><a href="http://www.andamanese.net/" target="_blank">www.andamanese.net</a></div>
<div>President: Linguistic Society of India<br>
URL: <a href="http://www.jnu.ac.in/FacultyStaff/ShowProfile.asp?SendUserName=anvita" target="_blank">
http://www.jnu.ac.in/FacultyStaff/ShowProfile.asp?SendUserName=anvita</a><br>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">Eitan Grossman
<div>Lecturer, Department of Linguistics/School of Language Sciences<br>
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<div>Hebrew University of Jerusalem</div>
<div>Tel: +972 2 588 1885</div>
<div>Fax: +972 2 588 0265</div>
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