<HTML><BODY><br>Dear Giorgio,<br>thanks a lot!<br>I will check both Tropper's Grammar and Brockelmann's GvG. If in the "core" Geʻez la- is indeed incompatible with the Acc. ending -a, would the examples of la-Noun-a be grammatical errors? Geʻez was not necessarily the native tongue of the writers.<br> And we are now left with Old Armenian only. Do you think the Old Armenian situation was a kind of transitory (the accusative is not yet quite gone, the DOM z- is already there), instable?<br> All best,<br> Sergey<br><br>Вторник, 28 мая 2013, 19:36 +02:00 от Giorgio Iemmolo <giorgio.iemmolo@uzh.ch>:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid #0857A6; margin:10px; padding:0 0 0 10px;" class="mailru-blockquote">
<div id="">
<div class="js-helper js-readmsg-msg">
<style type="text/css"></style>
<div id="style_13697626080000000846" class="mr_read__body">
<base target="_self" href="https://e.mail.ru/">
<div id="style_13697626080000000846_BODY">Dear Sergey,<br>
<br>
you do actually find sporadic instances of la- or l- in both Ge'ez and Classical Arabic together with the accusative ending. As I said before, this co-occurrence seems to be very uncommon and fluid. You can find some examples in Tropper's grammar "Altäthiopisch: Grammatik des Geʻez mit Übungstexten und Glossar" and in Brockelmann's "Grundriss der vergleichenden Grammatik der semitischen Sprachen". <br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Giorgio<br>
<br>
Il giorno 28-mag-2013, alle ore 18:38, Sergey Lyosov ha scritto:<br>
<br>
> Dear Giorgio,<br>
> no, I believe the mention of Ge'ez is misplaced in your post. Ge'ez does show the preposition "la-" as a differential object marker (like numerous Aramaic and Arabic varieties), but in Ge'ez it is incompatible with the <br>
> accusative ending -a (the only overt case ending in the singular). This is because "la-" is still felt to be a preposition, and prepositions are not compatible with the accusative in those Semitic languages that have case endings.<br>
> With all best wishes,<br>
> Sergey <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Вторник, 28 мая 2013, 12:29 +02:00 от Giorgio Iemmolo <<a href="sentmsg?compose&To=giorgio.iemmolo@UZH.CH">giorgio.iemmolo@UZH.CH</a>>:<br>
> Dear all,<br>
> <br>
> as far as I know, the co-occurrence of two accusative markers seems to be extremely rare cross-linguistically. If we exclude cases in which an accusative marker, like "a" is Romance, occurs in conjunction with accusative pronominal forms, the only cases I am aware of are the following ones:<br>
> <br>
> 1. Huangshui Chinese, where the older differential object marker pa (cognate with the well-known Mandarin Chinese ba) is being gradually supplanted by another marker "xa", which most of the time seems to co-occur with pa. Interestingly, xa is the general topic marker in Huangshui Chinese (Dede 2007).<br>
> <br>
> 2. Classical Armenian, where the differential object marker z- occurs with accusative plural marking (even though the situation seems to be rather fluid, see Meillet 1903: 90-91);<br>
> <br>
> 3. Ge'ez (Classical Ethiopian), which shows both the preposition "la-" as a differential object marker, plus an accusative ending -a which survives from the old Semitic system. <br>
> <br>
> If you're looking for cases where the two markers do not have to co-occur, then it is probably easier to find more examples like Biloxi (cf. Matthew Dryer's Daniel Hieber's emails), which might indeed be a case of DOM where a topic marker was reanalysed as a differential object marker with direct objects, a fact that doesn't seem to be as uncommon as one might think. <br>
> <br>
> As for the co-occurrence of accusative case-marking with indexation, such as clitic doubling in Romance. I would be very cautious to compare the two and consider them alike: when historical data is available, we often see that the two constructions, albeit closely related in terms of governing parameters, do not develop at the same time. Also from a pure synchronic perspective, the overlap between the two is not complete even in languages which are usually taken as chief examples of such a co-occurrence, e.g. different Spanish varieties. <br>
> All the very best,<br>
> <br>
> Giorgio<br>
> <br>
> Il giorno 27-mag-2013, alle ore 19:23, Daniel W. Hieber ha scritto:<br>
> <br>
> > Sergej, Matthew,<br>
> > <br>
> > I just wanted to pass along this note from David Kaufmann, PhD candidate at the University of Kansas, regarding the postpositions in Biloxi, a language he's done some work with. Something to consider when looking at the Biloxi data.<br>
> > <br>
> > best,<br>
> > <br>
> > Danny<br>
> > <br>
> > Omnis habet sua dona dies. ~ Martial<br>
> > <br>
> > Begin forwarded message:<br>
> > <br>
> >> From: David Kaufman <<a href="sentmsg?compose&To=dvkanth2010@gmail.com">dvkanth2010@gmail.com</a>><br>
> >> Date: May 27, 2013, 1:05:35 PM EDT<br>
> >> To: "Daniel W. Hieber" <<a href="sentmsg?compose&To=dwhieb@gmail.com">dwhieb@gmail.com</a>><br>
> >> Subject: Re: accusative + analytical DO markers<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Thanks, Danny! Here is my response:<br>
> >> <br>
> >> Dear Sergej and Matthew:<br>
> >> <br>
> >> I'm not convinced that yaNka(N) is a postposition in Biloxi. It may simply be the -yaN topic marker (definite article) + kaN switch reference (different subject/topic) marker. Einaudi hadn't done a great job figuring out all of the supposed suffixes in Biloxi. The only sure way I know of marking "accusative" or direct object "case" in Biloxi is via the -kaN or -k suffix. But even this is seldom used in Biloxi texts, so I'm always hesitant to call it a "case," since it appears to be subject to speaker preference (perhaps stylistic) and not required as are cases in, for instance, Russian or Latin.<br>
> >> <br>
> >> David Kaufman<br>
> >> University of Kansas<br>
> >> <a href="sentmsg?compose&To=dvkanth2010@gmail.com">dvkanth2010@gmail.com</a><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> Giorgio Iemmolo<br>
> Seminar für Allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft<br>
> Universität Zürich<br>
> Plattenstrasse 54<br>
> CH-8032 Zürich, Switzerland<br>
> Tel: +41 44 63 40228<br>
> e-mail: <a href="sentmsg?compose&To=giorgio.iemmolo@uzh.ch">giorgio.iemmolo@uzh.ch</a><br>
> Homepage: <a href="http://www.spw.uzh.ch/iemmolo_en.html" target="_blank">http://www.spw.uzh.ch/iemmolo_en.html</a><br>
> <br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Giorgio Iemmolo<br>
Seminar für Allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft<br>
Universität Zürich<br>
Plattenstrasse 54<br>
CH-8032 Zürich, Switzerland<br>
Tel: +41 44 63 40228<br>
e-mail: <a href="sentmsg?compose&To=giorgio.iemmolo@uzh.ch">giorgio.iemmolo@uzh.ch</a><br>
Homepage: <a href="http://www.spw.uzh.ch/iemmolo_en.html" target="_blank">http://www.spw.uzh.ch/iemmolo_en.html</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<base target="_self" href="https://e.mail.ru/">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br></BODY></HTML>